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preparing for the future
05-30-2013, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 12:41 PM by dynabill.)
Post: #1
preparing for the future
I am working on a 96 tracker specs are below. Right now it is tore down waiting for parts. My neighbor hooked it up to his obd2 It threw four codes at me, two are up and downstream 02 sensors, PO141 and PO135 I knew that was coming because PO clipped the wires, removed the cat and piece mealed a pipe to the exhaust. I have cat and down pipe coming but prob not till next week.
So the other two codes are PO300 random misfires, and the other is PO335 crankshaft position/sensor a circuit malfunction. considering that I cant run the engine at this point. I just want to be prepared for what may be around the corner, what I can test with our running the motor, or if I can do any tests with key on. Or if there is something i can start reading up on. thanks to all. Cheers Bill

1996 geo tracker cami vin# 2CNBE1867T693XXXX 2wd 5sp
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05-31-2013, 12:05 AM
Post: #2
RE: preparing for the future
how you doing, Bill ?


(05-30-2013 11:50 AM)dynabill Wrote:  I am working on a 96 tracker specs are below. Right now it is tore down waiting for parts.
My neighbor hooked it up to his obd2 It threw four codes at me, two are up and downstream 02 sensors, PO141 and PO135
I knew that was coming because PO clipped the wires, removed the cat and piece mealed a pipe to the exhaust.
I have cat and down pipe coming but prob not till next week.
So the other two codes are PO300 random misfires, and the other is PO335 crankshaft position/sensor a circuit malfunction. considering that I cant run the engine at this point. I just want to be prepared for what may be around the corner, what I can test with our running the motor, or if I can do any tests with key on. Or if there is something i can start reading up on. thanks to all. Cheers Bill

first that misfire (02 are easy once exh. is air leak free)
that P0335, that is the CKP sensor on the bottom front pan, are the wires cut there too? CRANK SENSOR.!
and when 335 are true, the 300s are a victim of it.
the 300 misfire uses the CKP sensor, and is a obd2 upgrade.

335s hit with 1 in 8 missing pulses( or 1in6 see FSM) , from the CKP triggers, or more. (dead is more)
fix CKP first
causes, a plenty.
or the timing belt is so loose, the CKP is messing up.
or the crank snout cog , is loose, or key stripped.

or the PO put in a 95 or earlier, cog and is missing a.. CKP tone wheel teeth. (easy, remove cpk, screw , and ckp, look up and see teeth)
if the crank cog (a day 1 check on all G16) is loose, then bad happens

the key shears. ( i use a beam torque wrench on that big 17mm bolt on the pulley and see??? if its 10ft.lbs,, 40, 50, 70 or 94.??
if below 50 that is real bad. only 94ft/.lbs is correct. (the 1996 TSB, SEE It on my tbelt page)
Id install a new Tbelt and inspect every inch of all that. I would.

btw, the crank cog has 3 generators, and most not be mixed parts. in 95 they integrated the rear washer.

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05-31-2013, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 12:41 PM by dynabill.)
Post: #3
RE: preparing for the future
Hey Jerry, I am good, thanks for stopping by. Hope all is well in your world.
I went out a little bit ago and checked wire harness on CKP, it is connected and wires running up, i will check tomorrow in day light, and see if they actually go somewhere, and than do a continuity test on them. Just for good measure. Ya, was kind of wondering if i would be replacing the timing belt, is probably the best. I will prob do a compression test before, just so we know. My son will be so excited that there is more work to do before he can drive it, lmao. I had to read him the riot act a couple of days ago when he said he would stop by and help me with the car for an hour. Boy,that took the ole temperature gauge right up to the red, if ya know what I mean. Ha, I told him, that I was helping him, and there would be no more time negotiations. He was working on it til it was done. I think he gets it now. But, I digress,....
On another note, I tried to upload some pics of the motor on this thread, but havent had any luck. Not sure what the deal is, i checked my settings, and all seemed ok. Please advise.
Ok I'm off to the tbelt page to get educated. thanks Jerry. Cheers Bill
P.S. I found all the rag top parts, rear seat and seat belts, interior rear trim and carpet at a junk yard an hour away from me. Everything in great condition too. I couldn't find anything from the link you sent me, but, i will still try. Oh ya, $200 for everything behind the drivers seat is what I got. No top yet tho.

1996 geo tracker cami vin# 2CNBE1867T693XXXX 2wd 5sp
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05-31-2013, 09:46 PM
Post: #4
RE: preparing for the future
that 335 is real. make sure the bolt on the crank snout is not loose. 17mm deep wall stock , IIRC.
you are blessed a donor near, by. that is really great.
my day 1 page (below)
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/pulley_off.html
if found tight, its a very good moment.

ok photos.
testing 1,2,3,,,,,,, i click Gallery button.
then engine.(example) then add picture
the title is mandatory, sorry
browse find a photo smaller than 2500x2500 pixels (huge)
find it, then loud it. and bingo
to link them , just look a them and capture the URL. and post that. or use the myimage link.

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06-01-2013, 02:47 AM
Post: #5
RE: preparing for the future
Bill got your CKP photos.
all looks good. cept 1 thing.
1: tone wheel is clean and no damage at all nor missing!, and would show wear and alum, dust if loose.
good !!!!
2: if the PO used a pan gasket, this is illegal on a 96+
all G16 , came new with a RTV GLUED ON pan . (no gasket) (some after market kits offer a think gasket,,,,)
is your pan gasket free, that is, only RTV held on?

This real gasket, stands the CKP off the pump, base, and can make it misfire. (100s of folks have done this)

the CKP rests on the pan, the pan must not be standing off the block , with a huge cork gasket, as some of tried.
the cork is like 1/8" think ,huge. or more.
the RTV is very thin,, is yours?


I UPLOADED IT, that is just paint on pan there, under CMP. i think , (no 3D) the RTV is there, and thin.
if the connections are tight and 335 throw over and over find a used CKP.
I think if the belt has slop, you get 300s but not 335, i think 335 is ECU watching only CKP pulse train . the sensor is dropping out. or dead.


[Image: 3_31_05_13_4_28_15.jpeg]


mine
[Image: 3_31_05_13_4_38_55.jpeg]

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06-01-2013, 03:34 AM
Post: #6
RE: preparing for the future
Hi jerry ya, just checked oil pan, I cans see rtv on outer edges of oil pan, and there is no gap between block and oil pan. it is hard to tell but the warped/curved piece directly south of the ckp hole, is the timing belt cover, it is flexible and will move in with light pressure{north} toward the ckp hole. there is plastic and than a rubber type gasket, that seems to be two pieces. IDK if this is how the tbelt cover comes or not. but that is what I think you were calling the paint, there is lots of oil around that area, also the whole motor, fire wall and every thing ihas a nice protective (?) coat of oil, which really needs to go away. once it is running, first thing is to take it to the car wash and clean whole motor and fire wall. oil has sprayed all the way back to the rear end. Its a freaking mess to work on.
is there a way to make the tbelt cover seal better, or get newish one. also, pic doesn't show it but one bolt on the cover is too long, and other is UA, not there. I temp repaired the long bolt by putting a nut on there. You can almost see it on west side w/o new spacer nut. . also, note that the hole for the bolt on plastic cover is split. where the missing bolt is I will have to remove belt and such to get a new one in there. I think I should still tear it down and check to see if key way is in good shape. do you agree? I am still having trouble uploading pics, I think my files are too big. The ones i sent you were from my iphone. I will try to get those to load on the site. cheers Bill

1996 geo tracker cami vin# 2CNBE1867T693XXXX 2wd 5sp
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06-01-2013, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2013 06:47 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #7
RE: preparing for the future
the cover is solid over the belt, to keep out deadly pebbles.
the is this very nice foam seal in the edge of cover, that keeps out the sand.
what error do you get on pic's? UL.
id do the tbelt cover comes off , after fan blade, 7 screws? or more all 6mm threaded.
step 6, pulley off, and cog stays, if you want, if torque is 94lbs and not found loose 17mm bolt. and TDC checks ,look good. its probably good.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html
see drawing 1 on same page. see all screws there.
[Image: tbelt-explod1.jpg]

im sure you ckp sensor mount is ok. it looks ok.
my last cover, look just like swiss cheese. the belt cut it to ribbons (PO, actions,or inactions... LOL)

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06-01-2013, 10:55 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2013 10:55 PM by hatchetman.)
Post: #8
RE: preparing for the future
bill

8 screws (22/23 ) hold the cover on, and 1 nut #11
there are other screws. some only clamps for the harness, but im looking at your photo , is that looking up, and on left front of engine,
the screw long, in your photos is screw 12, above. and is the spring #6 holding end.
my guess, is your spring is missing, and that means the PO guessed at belt tension, if true.
part 7 indexes to the rear of the idler and the spring pulls 7 lever, the idler moves and tensions belt and the tech then locks stud #9 down, to hold said tension for 60,000 more miles.
if the the tension is wrong, it might (not sure) cause dtc p0335s. (the books are not that clear on the relation ships on cmp/ckp , pure software in the ECU)


Id set tension spec, now, reset the DTCs by pulline the dome fuse for 5min) then test run the car looking for no DTCs on a 96, and for sure , the 300s can in fact be caused by loose belt.
300s use both the crank and cam sensors to find out which cylinder misfires, and a loose belt, make that impossible. (as does spark misfire or injection misfire)

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06-02-2013, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 03:07 PM by dynabill.)
Post: #9
RE: preparing for the future
I have been working on checking the timing of the car today,it took me a bit to get here hopefully the pics come thru. first pic is of the whole timing bellt area where everthing landed with #1 cyl @TDC.

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...55_00.jpeg

Here is shot of Timing cover and harmonic balance where it landed w/#1 cyl @ TDC

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...57_35.jpeg

shot of bottom timing gear where it landed w/#1 cyl @ TDC

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...56_42.jpeg

shot of top timing gear where it landed w/#1 cyl @ TDC

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...58_35.jpeg

I tried to loosen crank nut today, after playing with the timing most of the day. I had car on jackstands, had my son hold brakes and put e brake on, with manual transmision in 5th gear. I sarted of slowly loosening bolt with a click Torque wrench, was all I had available to me. I started low and finally got to about 70 foot pounds, when I noticed bottom timing mark was going backwards CCW. I stopped there, because i know on DOHC engines you cant go backwards. So after some thought i Figured i need to take rear wheels off of the jack stands, and chock the rear tires. I just put new rear brakes on, and they are not adjusted, so i will adjust them, manually. I also put new E-brake cables on once I have those adjusted to the newly adjusted brakes, I am hoping that I will be ok to loosen crank nut, and check the key way to see if it is in need of repair. I am hoping that I am on the right path with this.

Another thing I need to touch on is on the air filter box heading down stream towards the fuel injection, just beyond the MAF is a rubber plenum, that has been electrical taped to cover up some breaks in the rubber. I am wondering if I can use super thin cyanoacrylate superglue. (It is as thin as water and will find a way into cracks and dry instantly, and reach full strength in an hour). (this is just info for those that don't know about it. ) I do have concerns that the rubber has reached the end of its life, and this may only be a one time trick. Are there replacement plenums for these?

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...02_05.jpeg

I think that about covers it, thanks for your help. cheers Bill

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06-02-2013, 11:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 12:13 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #10
RE: preparing for the future
(06-02-2013 03:02 PM)dynabill Wrote:  I have been working on checking the timing of the car today,it took me a bit to get here hopefully the pics come thru. first pic is of the whole timing bellt area where everthing landed with #1 cyl @TDC. why?

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...55_00.jpeg

Here is shot of Timing cover and harmonic balance where it landed w/#1 cyl @ TDC

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...57_35.jpeg
photo 35, is that a key in that cam hole slot? "or photo adoration" and why is that cam hub key slot missing the I stamp, odd that is.?
and why are your timing this at #1 firing the cam is timed at #4 firing.
all the steps are here. see phase 1 and 2. all steps are important. on a new motor, this is simple, but this motor is not new.

http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/16-fast-belt-install.html


shot of bottom timing gear where it landed w/#1 cyl @ TDC (great for timing a dizzy, valve cover planted.)

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...56_42.jpeg

shot of top timing gear where it landed w/#1 cyl @ TDC

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...58_35.jpeg

I tried to loosen crank nut today, after playing with the timing most of the day. I had car on jackstands, had my son hold brakes and put e brake on, with manual transmission in 5th gear. I started of slowly loosening bolt with a click Torque wrench, was all I had available to me. I started low and finally got to about 70 foot pounds, when I noticed bottom timing mark was going backwards CCW. I stopped there, because i know on SOHC engines you cant go backwards.
the FSM states not to turn the crank backward for only 1 reason, so the bolt dont accidentally come loose. (sad they skip the why, huh?)
it is true, CW is the only way to tension the belt )step), it must be done in the normal running direction, for sure.


So after some thought i Figured i need to take rear wheels off of the jack stands, and chock the rear tires. I just put new rear brakes on, and they are not adjusted, so i will adjust them, manually. I also put new E-brake cables on once I have those adjusted to the newly adjusted brakes, I am hoping that I will be ok to loosen crank nut, and check the key way to see if it is in need of repair. I am hoping that I am on the right path with this. you are.

Another thing I need to touch on is on the air filter box heading down stream towards the fuel injection, just beyond the MAF is a rubber plenum, that has been electrical taped to cover up some breaks in the rubber. I am wondering if I can use super thin cyanoacrylate superglue. (It is as thin as water and will find a way into cracks and dry instantly, and reach full strength in an hour). (this is just info for those that don't know about it. ) I do have concerns that the rubber has reached the end of its life, and this may only be a one time trick. Are there replacement plenums for these? yes.

http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...02_05.jpeg
ouch ! bad part id 16? suzuki pn, 13881-58b00 (1992 to 96 only)
http://www.oemsuzukiparts.com/parts/inde...eid=214330
97-98 are diffr, and need whole intake swap, to use them.
im not sure how to glue this type plastic. not at all. ive never had luck with that, RTV?


http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/92-95induct.jpg

I think that about covers it, thanks for your help. cheers Bill


this is the only way to time any 16v G16 engine. below, and has FSM full link , as refr.
there is a 6 point alignment. and the belt need to be, tensioned.
you are still at phase 1 step 14. my guess.
[Image: cam-cog1w.jpg]

phase 2 , step 15, prevents p0335, and other false codes, and max belt life.

you photo 35 will be great help timing the distributor. last. because that is #1 firing, a Dizzy can be timed #1 or 4 firing.
not looking at valve lash , id set the dizzy at #4 firing. and rotor to #4 tower term. that be.
1,3,4,2 , (dizzy fires every 90deg. so rotor is at 7pm, as seen here. if the cam is at #4 firing marks, see?)
[Image: firing16v.jpg]

you can time a dizzy 2 ways, valve cover, off #1 using lash loose, or valve cover on, and timed to #4 ,using the cam timing steps. (aligned #4)
no FSM covers that. The FSM assumes its a 60k and the lash is checked there, and new VC gaskets. they assume the shop is GM or SUZ. and doing
normal service. not skipping steps.

here is the acid test for the cam. off my sneak a peak page.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/sneak-a-peek.html#ACID
the 7th point of alignment is keys not sheared,+ or crank snout mangled,



that 17mm nut, you can not hurt the cam, turning it CCW, ever.
the bolt can be at 94lbs. that is a blessing , that means the last guy read the TSB! great.
i turn the bolt, ccw, and if over 150lbs. i giveup or use heat, (gently) and some bolts are loctited in, and if loctited, did PO use what grade.?
one grade takes 300f heat to remove, or its Impossible to remove, period cold. and is the purpose of said grade.
I use reg. grade loctite on my bolt threads, works cold.
i dont like heating my crank snout do to close proximity of the babbit main. 300F max there, IIRC?

if i find i can not remove the bolt, i then do very careful TDC checks on the crank.
the piston stays at TDC for more than 1 degree (human looking at straw sitting in the spark hole , i never use a screw driver for fear of damaging the very fragile head spark 14mm threads...)
When we use a real tdc tool, or spark stopper, we split the difference.
with the spark stopper, you go CW and hit, (mark the cog ) then ccw and hit, (mark the cog again,) the the 1/2 way point between the two marks.
is true TDC. I only need to see if its with in 2 degree/s , im not racing. (in racing we use a dial indicator, it's dead accurate)
the only reason to look careful is to see if the key is damaged (hidden damage) and off TDC. many are.
keep in mind ,any hidden damage, will get worse as you drive.
the other reason to look is:
1: damage to snout, key
2: damage to back stop on crank snout, this is what really holds the cog , not any key.
3: damage to the cog in any way shape or form, out it comes in to trash, (both key, bore out of round or back stop damaged)
a good cog and key./ crank snout. the fit is very tight, not "interference tight" but so tight i must use my puller, that is how it left the factory.

watch out for these horrors,
1: 17mm nut welded to pulley, seen many field stump pulling kicks done like this, car worth $50 , so they weld it. (id never do it,)
2: key welded to crank and filed to fit.
3: only key slot welded, and filed anew.
4: key cut on back side of crank, 180 out, and new key fitted here. and timed 180 out, or put e new marks on cog.

as you can see, its like a box of chocolates, "you never know what you are going to get)

the only bad crank if done (not possible with the locite trick seen on my how to fix the bad snout page, using the Mazda trick)
bad mangling, rebuilt crank is $400 (off shelf)
is i have my local pro crank shop, they can weld it and machine a new key , very easy. then polish the journals for free.
he can grind a crank for 1/4th off shelf. if need...

Usually the bolt cracks free at about 150lbs. (by hand)
do not use an air hammer impact gun, one guy did and over 200 lbs, the treads , just ,fell out. seen so many times, its sick.
yes, rear wheels on ground 5sp,, you can feel, in fact, the whole drive line wind up. just like torsion spring, ..... normal.
the stock motor is 90 fl/lbs torque so that is nothing, 2x that is ok too. ask 5 psi boost turbo guys.

that is my comments on timing a SOHC 16v G16motor. and the pit falls.

here is a 97 , in detail.
http://www.fixkick.com/engine/97-motor-p...index.html

sorry for long post, i dont want you to fail.
btw, its all here, even the dizzy timing lies... see my photo above for truth. the below is the GM book and is poor clone of suzuki real. but is $15 on fleabay. 1996 actual.
http://www.acksfaq.com/trackerfsm.htm

chapter 6a covers this, not the horrors, just assembling a perfect motor.

ps, here is my running list of GM book errors.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/error-galore.html

335 , what is it. what to do.
GMs, take.
pdf page 35 chapter 3 on EFI DTCs
http://www.acksfaq.com/96-FSM-v2-6E3-A-part3-pdf.htm

keep in mind, all 96s start and run with the CKP sensor unplugged, not great, but starts , runs and drives, CEL blaring away....

i dont have the SUZ page on this so do not know if the CKP was dead after 20 CMP pulses is true.
this may be true. 20CMP equals 10 crank revolutions. that is big time drop out. 20 div by 4(cyl) is 5 and x2 for crank ratio is 10 crank turns.

so 335 is a major loss of CKP, not just 1 pulse in 6 , like CMP does for failure.
the CKP wires also have a shield, if the shield on the cable is broken , it will fail.
the CKP measures about 400 ohms (coil pins) any DMM can read that.
no matter the CMP is sending wrong. either dead, or dropping out.

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