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preparing for the future
06-03-2013, 01:21 AM
Post: #11
RE: preparing for the future
Hi jerry, I think I have found the problem, I wasnt timing the car per se, I was following what the PO had the car running at. I found that the plug wires are at different locations, from what the diagram you sent shows above. So I think my only course of action now is to start from scratch, pull spark wires, get them in the right location and move to valves and crank alignment. this will be kind of crude, but I will show how my wires are coming from the ditsy.

1 2
3 4 myditsy

3 1
4 2 your diagram from above



so it appears that timing is 90 Degrees out or would that be 270 at any rate I

hope you get my drift on the firing order.

also, the spark plugs are gapped crazy big too, so I will reset them for the moment and put plugs on the growing list. I am off to adjust the brakes and try and remove the crank bolt.
I,m not going to fail, I know that you have my back Cheers Bill

1996 geo tracker cami vin# 2CNBE1867T693XXXX 2wd 5sp
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06-03-2013, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 04:14 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #12
RE: preparing for the future
the above, dont help me. i need, where was, crank tdc mark , 12pm?
where was E cam mark, 12pm or 6pm.
the #1 and #4 pistons run in sync./ only the cam proves what fires, then dizzy.


first comes the cam, if the cam is wrong , the dizzy timing is hopeless, as it is driven by the rear of cam.
the cam does have 6 and 7 point timing, any of which can in fact make motor dead or run like crap.

fact 2,
the dizzy can in fact be timed 4 ways.
the #1 wire can be on any tower pin, and run 100% perfect. ( i see no point it doing so.. but you can. and i have on all dizzy gear cars)
but....
the FSM times it to #1fire at 1pm.
that is not a law, but if you read the fsm , many pages constantly refer to the #1 location. (lash, and other pages in the FSM)

case in point.
FSM
turn crank until the rotor lands, HERE. "1pm photo"
oops, if you planted the dizzy for #1 at 7pm (eg) then you fail big time, EG; burns up the valves after setting the lash.
a big pit fall.
but if you never read an FSM nor ever read the lash proc, then you will have no problems, because you can set lash by using the heels of the lobes
and no FSM in sight, ("otto cycle motors")

time the cam, using 7 point, checks (6 if keys/slots not wrecked)
then set the cam gear to #1 firing , E mark at 6pm (down) and crank at TDC (1 and 4 are same )
is rotor at 1pm
yes, good that is FSM spec timing.
no.? its not, so redrop the dizzy and set rotor to 1pm, and retime dizzy from scratch.
if not wanting to do that, then red ink every page in FSM showing 1pm rotor.
qod: question of day.
where is you cam key at ?, (in the I slot or the E slot, the photo is not clear (most cameras messup 3D ,LOL ) i cant tell of its air or steel in the hole, in the photo.
good luck to you.

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06-03-2013, 04:23 AM
Post: #13
RE: preparing for the future
[quote='fixkick' pid='319' dateline='1370193290']
the above, dont help me. i need, where was, crank tdc mark , 12pm?
crank was at 12pm per photos

where was E cam mark, 12pm or 6pm.

e cam was at 6 pm per photos

cam key is in the E slot E is at 6oclock crank is at 12 oclock

Jerry I never set timing on this car I was checking to see where everything was as set by PO. I turned crank till tdc mark was set at 12, that put the ditsy pointing at number one cylinder,according to how PO had spark wires going from ditsy, it lead to the #1 cylinder Here is pic I hope it explains it better


http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...42_34.jpeg

I want to time this car to the factory service way, I have done nothing to the cars timing, It is as I recieved it with the crank tdc @12, the Cam with the E @ 6 oclock this left the rotor pointing to what is 1 by the picture of its ditsy.

On another note I got the crank bolt off It came off with about 115 foot pounds, The keyway is in excellent shape here is pic

[Image: 153_02_06_13_5_43_22.jpeg]

So I guess I am wondering what my next step is, I have timing belt off, crank is at tdc 12, and cam is at E 6 oclock. I can swithch wires on ditsy to fsm correct location. But I am unsure if i can turn cam, in fear of causing damage. i think I will have to remove valve cover and set the lash, because I fear PO didnt have things right.
At any Rate I hope we are on the same page now.
Cheers Bill

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06-04-2013, 02:50 AM
Post: #14
RE: preparing for the future
Hi ya Jerry, i took a trip down to the junk yard today and came up with the spring for setting the tension on the timing chain, lucky find. i didn't locate a used ckp there. I just checked CKP for resistance, used two different meters, too. Wishful thinking on my part. it is dead nothing, went to the great sensor heap in the ground. so I will add another thing to my list. We did find a replacement plenum, though. It is all plastic from maf to where it hits the throttle body, guy said it came off of a 97. here is pic http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...26_23.jpeg i found a CKP at rock auto, i will get if i cant locate a used one that has the required resistance. BECK/ARNLEY Part # 1800290 34.89$ + ship. Funny thing guy at junk yard was the guy that had the car, or who it was titled to. he said both seals were replaced, but didn't replace the water pump, timing belt is new, but I am wondering if i should get a new tension roller, or just get the kit to ensure, it is all good for 60,000 miles. he told me he drove car all the time and oil never dropped below half a quart. Seemed like he was being honest. I tried to find a new timing chain cover there but no luck. So i will keepmy eyes out and just seal up holes in this one. cheers Bill

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06-04-2013, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 04:15 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #15
RE: preparing for the future
(06-04-2013 02:50 AM)dynabill Wrote:  Hi ya Jerry, i took a trip down to the junk yard today and came up with the spring for setting the tension on the timing chain, lucky find. i didn't locate a used ckp there. I just checked CKP for resistance, used two different meters, too. Wishful thinking on my part. it is dead nothing, went to the great sensor heap in the ground. so I will add another thing to my list.
Great, the coil is open (great in that, one more problem solved, and p300s, may clear.)
great work. there



We did find a replacement plenum, though. It is all plastic from maf to where it hits the throttle body, guy said it came off of a 97. here is pic http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/g...26_23.jpeg
its ok to use newer but sometimes, the other parts dont match up. in 98 they even deleted that water heater in the center.
the only hard mismatch was from air box to fender tube, mixing 97/98 , i had to mix them in a funny way. but go it.
your way is easy way.



i found a CKP at rock auto, i will get if i cant locate a used one that has the required resistance. BECK/ARNLEY Part # 1800290 34.89$ + ship. Funny thing guy at junk yard was the guy that had the car, or who it was titled to. he said both seals were replaced, but didn't replace the water pump, timing belt is new, but I am wondering if i should get a new tension roller, or just get the kit to ensure, it is all good for 60,000 miles. he told me he drove car all the time and oil never dropped below half a quart. Seemed like he was being honest. I tried to find a new timing chain cover there but no luck. So i will keep my eyes out and just seal up holes in this one. cheers Bill

that rock part will work.
new seals. new belt, great and the pump is questionable.
id get the idler too, but are very expensive, neat, the gates belt kit has one that comes with it , near free, by comparision.

yes ,just install the belt , crank at TDC, cam cog at E markup 12pm.
tension it, using the 2 turn CW rule.
the set the spring stud. then lock the idler.
that finishes the cam, it only takes 10min to do,.
the move the cam cog to E mark to 6pm (6pm is #1 firing)
then plant the dizzy with the rotor at 1pm, and base in center of its range (calib, screw clamp arch slot)
then route the wires, per above.

your PO had the dizzy timed, one of the other 3 ways, thats ok but i bet you want it, fsm way, 1pm.
last step is to start it and set static time, with the freeze jumper planted , hot


good luck to you

that is good news. the key looks perfect, and nice back stop boss. it will run forever like that.

once the cam is timed, we can do the dizzy last. ,its not hard.

there are many stores that sell the cover, not just suzuki.

http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.php...cover.html

suz
cover
http://www.oemsuzukiparts.com/parts/inde...eid=214330


see my table below, for all the suz, pn that fail in the front.
use column 4 96+
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/damage/index.html
seal
http://www.oemsuzukiparts.com/parts/inde...eid=214330

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06-04-2013, 04:33 AM
Post: #16
RE: preparing for the future
thanks jerry, things are starting to look up, I guess you saw keyway was clear and tightened to 94fp. key is not pliers pulling tight but there is no slop. I have water pump coming in from NAPA today, and will install it. they have ckp for $40 (comes tomorrow) and tension pulley for $17. (tomorrow also.) than I am good for 60k. Just a quick c-note and done, sigh.

have a few questions about setting timing per instructions above, and well below now too, ha

yes ,just install the belt , crank at TDC, cam cog at E markup 12pm.
[color=#FF0000] crank is at 12pm Cam E is at 6pm, now. timing belt is off, can I just rotate cam 180 degrees (cw, ccw) to get it in the correct position w/o fear of doing damage to 0 clearance engine? all this with the ditzy pulled?and plugs pulled too?[color]
tension it, using the 2 turn CW rule.

the set the spring stud. then lock the idler.
that finishes the cam, it only takes 10min to do,.
the move the cam cog to E mark to 6pm (6pm is #1 firing)
I take that this is done by turning crank bolt CW till cam E is at 6pm
then plant the dizzy with the rotor at 1pm, and base in center of its range (calib, screw clamp arch slot)
then route the wires, per above.


Front end parts just came in, so now I have a busy day, son is hear and is going to get an education.
thanks again jerry. Bill

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06-04-2013, 07:15 AM
Post: #17
RE: preparing for the future
(06-04-2013 04:33 AM)dynabill Wrote:  thanks jerry, things are starting to look up, I guess you saw keyway was clear and tightened to 94fp. key is not pliers pulling tight but there is no slop. I have water pump coming in from NAPA today, and will install it. they have ckp for $40 (comes tomorrow) and tension pulley for $17. (tomorrow also.) than I am good for 60k. Just a quick c-note and done, sigh.

have a few questions about setting timing per instructions above, and well below now too, ha

yes ,just install the belt , crank at TDC, cam cog at E markup 12pm.
[color=#FF0000] crank is at 12pm Cam E is at 6pm, now. timing belt is off, can I just rotate cam 180 degrees (cw, ccw) to get it in the correct position w/o fear of doing damage to 0 clearance engine? all this with the ditzy pulled?and plugs pulled too?[color]
tension it, using the 2 turn CW rule.
you can turn the cam and it wont hit. (unless the cam is not stock) id do it gentle and by hand (or turn the cam bolt CW with a wrench) gently.
you can not bend the valves by hand, even if interference type.
keep in mind of someone set the lash 50 thou too tight, all bets off. so go easy,
Suz puts warnings on all books, for that, as some have diff cams. i just treat them all with respect,



the set the spring stud. then lock the idler.
that finishes the cam, it only takes 10min to do,.
the move the cam cog to E mark to 6pm (6pm is #1 firing) (for dizzy)_
I take that this is done by turning crank bolt CW till cam E is at 6pm YES< for dizzy.
then plant the dizzy with the rotor at 1pm, and base in center of its range (calib, screw clamp arch slot)
then route the wires, per above.


Front end parts just came in, so now I have a busy day, son is hear and is going to get an education.
thanks again jerry. Bill

sounds like fun dad /son day, have blast.

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06-11-2013, 10:06 PM
Post: #18
RE: preparing for the future
Hi Jerry, I thought I would give an update on the progress on the tracker, all front end parts are in, so are the exhaust parts. i had a little complication with the timing, but after reading your pages I think I have that worked out. I didnt mark the ditsy, so I just kind of eyeballed 1pm on the ditsy. I ended up having too turn ditsy all the way ccw just to get it running. So i did the sneak a peek trick and therein found my troubles. It is now running fine, i've yet to time it and may have time this morning. I pulled the dome fuse and cleared all the cel codes, before i started it the first time. I let it run last night about a half an hour (it is still sitting on jack stands) and the cel is quiet. I don't know if that is a long enough time for it to pop a code. Also, the exhaust manifold has a massive crack on the 4 tube, almost all the way around it, so I took the big plunge and ordered the calimini manifold. ouch!!!
when I was having the timing troubles, I did a compression test I had about 30 psi on 1 and 4 cylinder and about 170 on on 2 and 4 cylinder. This was before I fixed the timing problem. I havent checked the compression now that the car is running better.

Before I started working on the timing (the way I received it from the PO) I tried using a rubber hose to blow in #1 cylinder as I turned crank snout, i would get different variable of wind noise, but never could get it to not make an obvious seal.
i also did this after my first attempt of setting the timing, and had the same result, along with conclusive compression check

I havent done a compression check since car seems to be closer to timing w/o using the timing light, or have I done the blow test either.

So this making me wonder about the valve lash, Would the valves being adjusted wrong make the compression low on 1 and 4 cylinder? At any rate, this where things stand. i will get car timed this morning, and start checking out the valve lash pages. thanks Bill

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06-11-2013, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2013 11:16 PM by fixkick.)
Post: #19
RE: preparing for the future
(06-11-2013 10:06 PM)dynabill Wrote:  Hi Jerry, I thought I would give an update on the progress on the tracker, all front end parts are in, so are the exhaust parts. i had a little complication with the timing, but after reading your pages I think I have that worked out. I didnt mark the ditsy, so I just kind of eyeballed 1pm on the ditsy.
my marks are just for noobs, (or those at wits end ,etc)
you can just grab the rotor hold it at 1pm and stuff the dizzy a few times , keeping the window open in the mount slot.



I ended up having too turn ditsy all the way ccw just to get it running. So i did the sneak a peek trick and therein found my troubles.
It is now running fine, i've yet to time it and may have time this morning.
I pulled the dome fuse and cleared all the cel codes, before i started it the first time. I let it run last night about a half an hour (it is still sitting on jack stands) and the cel is quiet.

I don't know if that is a long enough time for it to pop a code. (its long en ought for engine but driving finds CAT/EGR/EVAP codes, later.


Also, the exhaust manifold has a massive crack on the 4 tube, almost all the way around it, so I took the big plunge and ordered the calimini manifold. ouch!!! Good , choice, as the stocks mans, all seem to crack at #4 , like clock work, (my guess is limphome mode cracks them)

when I was having the timing troubles, I did a compression test I had about 30 psi (you mean 130?) on 1 and 4 cylinder and about 170 on on 2 and 4 cylinder. This was before I fixed the timing problem. I havent checked the compression now that the car is running better.

Before I started working on the timing (the way I received it from the PO) I tried using a rubber hose to blow in #1 cylinder as I turned crank snout, i would get different variable of wind noise, but never could get it to not make an obvious seal.
i also did this after my first attempt of setting the timing, and had the same result, along with conclusive compression check

I havent done a compression check since car seems to be closer to timing w/o using the timing light, or have I done the blow test either.

So this making me wonder about the valve lash, Would the valves being adjusted wrong make the compression low on 1 and 4 cylinder?
Sure, and do check it, as tight valves burn to a crisp fast.

At any rate, this where things stand. i will get car timed this morning, and start checking out the valve lash pages. thanks Bill
there are 2 ways to do lash, 1: watch lobes and set it, or use the fast suzuki way, per FSM.
the watch way, is to watch , #1 cam lobes, see it to land on TDC crank mark. set lash#1. then turn CW crank to #3 landing on its TDC (+180deg from #1) then 4 TDC (same crank mark as #1 , and last 2 at 180 crank mark).
no books, just you and the cam shaft.
one trick is to jog crank at TDC #1 and see that the #1 vavles hold steady, jogging crank say +10 degrees, if it moves the rocker (around TDC), the cam is timed wrong. Intake,compression,fire&power stroke then exhaust stroke) The top of compression stroke is fire point TDC.
the rockers are on the large back side heels of the cam lobes ,firing,, and the rockers dont move there as it fires, and as you jog it. This is just sanity test, see if the cam action is right as i do #1 lash.


great news. !

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06-12-2013, 01:48 AM
Post: #20
RE: preparing for the future
hey jerrythanks for the reply, yes there is no compression or very little on 1 and 4 30psi , not 130psi ,and I can always blow air thru #1 cyl as i rotate crank. I took compression tester out and put back in several times to verify i was getting a good seal, also lots of down force on rubber tube to insure a decent fit. this was all before i had rotor turned closer to 1pm than it was before. i will check timing with a light and compression asap. and see if I am able to get the precision timing marks lined up, which i need to do in order to set the lash. I have a funeral today so idk if i will have the time. Just did compression on a warm engine, 1cyl almost 15psi, 2cyl 180pli 3cyl180psi 4cyl 30psi, also 1 and 4 spark plugs were a lot cooler than the 2 and 3 spark plugs. you could hold the 1 and 4, where you couldn hold the 23 and 3 spark plugs. cheers Bill

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