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No brakes after a 360* turn - Printable Version

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No brakes after a 360* turn - Rapom - 07-04-2018

Got a fun one Kickfix. After i turn a circle at very low speeds in a parking lot. When i press the brake pedal it shoots to the floor and while at the floor if i force it hard i get maybe 5% stopping power. Now when i take my foot off tbe brake. The pedal returns to the normal spot and if i press the brake again. All is normal. Meaning pedal is firm near top with 100% stopping power.. i dont understand this. You either have brakes or you dont. Depending on what fails in the system, and there is alot that can fail. They all have very spesfic symptoms. I cant think of anything that can cause this. And its very intermittent. Its happened 3 times in about 1000 miles of driving.

Now the full story

Kick has a 3" coil lift with 31" mud tires. No body lift. No vents or lines of any kind are streched in any way.. when i bought the kick the brake pedal would travel 60% before the rig would slow. Recently (right before my issue started) i raised the kick and put a pipe on the brake pedal and varying pressures and rotated the wheels to see what brakes were grabbing and what ones were not. Turns out the rears would not grab unless you really hit the pedal hard. This made sense to me being my e brake has to be yanked alllll the way up to do anything. So i remove the rear wheels and drums to adjust the brakes/ebrake. I notice the shoes are about 60% life left. (3mm or so) and the adjusters are all the way tight... so i cleaned and lubed them all up and moved to the cable adjustment at the e brake handle. As suspected the adjusting nut was loose. I tightned it untill there was a slight drag on both rear wheels. Then backed the nut off. Ebrake full engagement is at around 4 to 6 clicks now. And brake pedal feels great. All was swell until the intermittent no brakes thing started.

Fluid is clean and full. No pinched lines anywhere. All calipers are working as should. No leaks or rust on booster or vac line leaks. Im going to raise it up right now and remove all wheels to inspect but all i plan on acomplishing is wasting my time..

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - fixkick - 07-04-2018

a very non spec car.
even FORD parts on a metric car.
what is there no now is any ones guess.

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - Rapom - 07-05-2018

Ok here is my late/weird update. i raised the front and rotated both front wheels, left was free, right was stuck solid!! like how was this tiny 4cyl pushing a 3" lift with boggers and a stuck wheel WITH ac on! lol i just thought the a/c and hard top being on was what was holding it back., upon further investigation (ass uming bad brake hose) i found that the caliper was seized solid. verified by loosing bleeder on caliper and trying to push piston in. solid seized., this isnt abnormal to me being that the PO replaced the lf caliper a few years back, they usually go in pairs. so after this discovery i thought to myself... yea its stuck.. yes im replacing it right now. BUT knowing what i know.. a seized caliper has its own symptoms, non on wich are no brakes then brakes work. but i didnt see anything obvious , cut lines or anything leaking. i did check the MS shaft and to see if the pin fell out or if it was loose or leaking inside the car, nothing. after i replaced the caliper and bleed it. i decided to bleed the other front caliper while i was setup. who knows if po ever did it right? well i had the front off the ground, only the rf wheel was off so in order to access the front left bleed i needed to turn the wheel (and here we go.. are you ready??!!) as i turned the wheel to full cock i felt resistance near the end of the radius.. thought.. hmm thats odd. got out to look thinking im stretching brake hoses. NOPE the damn caliper(s) are pressing against my (ford ranger) front coil springs!!!!!!!!!!! so when the engine is running and PS is working.. the caliper against the coil spring is actually pushing the damn piston (s) back into the caliper!!!!!! i had issues with these damn coils rubbing the struts and making alot of noise, but never would have thought that would happen!!! looking for 3" coils now! arrgg! atleast now i know what causes it and that on the highway i wont be surprised with no brakes , only happens at full turn... well i doubt this will help anyone due to the unique cause.. but hey who knows..

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - Zook.dawg - 12-25-2018

Fix written below for your problem without new springs

This is is called the "Hagen widening mod" and was done on.purpose. it's searchable on Google etc.

It's A modification to the front suspension A arms for trackers that are lifted or have oversized tires, in which you redrill the rear lower a arm, relocating the "pivot bolt" hole.

This mod allows the use of the bolt-on (left) cv axle on both sides of the vehicle. Afterwards you will only need to carry the left CV axle as a spare. Replacement of a broken shaft becomes easier, not having to remove the wheel for axle replacement.

Redrilling this hole moves the A arms forward, giving more caster, more width between the tires(wider stance) and moves the tire away from the wheel well, preventing tire tub on the fender well.

Pros:
More caster, purportedly better tracking and stability at speed.
More width (stability) off camber and in hard turns.
More leverage on springs, making for a softer ride.
No tire rub on rear of fender well.
Only carry one spare axle - easier axle install.

Cons
Upon hard turns the caliper his the springs during tight turns, pushing the caliper away from the disk.
This causes a delay in braking and the need to pump the brakes for them to work. This is completely
Unacceptable as it can happen when not expected. Brake problems can be catastrophic to life and property. Angel

Hagen's modifications are many and prolific. He's a suspension tech by trade.
From the front suspension to the rear axle he's published many mods for these cars.
Look over your suspension and brakes well. If these mods are not done exactly as specified out corners were cut,
many problems can result. Check for more mods to your rig, and correct any problems you may find.


Fix for your problem From the source

Quote:With all that being said, there is one side effect. Steering bump-stops have to be adjusted properly. Improper steering adjustment or if you bend a front-end part, (tie rod, drag link, Idler arm) and the steering is allowed to turn too far, the caliper may turn so far it runs into the coil. This forces the piston back in the caliper and you wont have a brake pedal until the second pump. Normally the tire would hit the frame first but the tire now clears the frame. If everything is adjusted properly then this won’t happen. It doesn’t happen often, or to everyone, but if it does it can be pretty scary.

Source
https://www2.zukiworld.com/feature_hagan_frontendmod/

I am familiar with most of Hagens mods and source articles. Drop a line here for Abby questions you might have.

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - fixkick - 12-28-2018

wow what a dangerous car , with calipers that hit anything.

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - fixkick - 12-28-2018

use the spindle locks adjust them to limit travel.

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - Zook.dawg - 12-29-2018

Spindle locks, are these the same as the steering stops that are on the inside of the steering knuckle?

I've never heard the term "spindle locks" before.

Quote:wow what a dangerous car , with calipers that hit anything

I agree. New cars and drivers anti lock brakes etc. How many new drivers know to pump the brakes when they are not working correct Huh

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - fixkick - 01-10-2019

sure the spindles/knuckles are all part of huge drop forged part
the stops are on the 2 arms on the rear of the spindle back stop plate. (2 large bolts there to adjust steering limits)

any non stock car parts used on the front end suspension ,theses are a first stop look.
even tires hitting finders can kill you. (think on it, moving fast and turning, on slipping pavement) boom, unlimited,damage. or turning and braking, and gee bouncing.

i can't see my drawings on this, the stop may be part of the steering box. pitman arm, I forget. 10 years, ago and on vacation far from my books.

in my mind jeep parts begin to merge in to virtara parts... not good.
ok found this, nowstops seen

[Image: 3_18_12_15_12_52_39.jpeg]

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - fixkick - 01-10-2019

ok , steer box pitman arm stops. sure.
or the tie rod, idler arm link?
some where there, be like 5 min.to find them. looking there.

RE: No brakes after a 360* turn - fixkick - 01-11-2019

when i get the time, and my parts book , data base working, I will put those parts in the gallery under suspension.
ok at actual suzuki sales ,i see this

see part 6 see those 2 landing pads on top of the pitman arm? must be frame stops to pitman arm limits.... sorry can't remember this,, so good.

https://www.suzukicarparts.com/media/images/oe/mechanical/F750074.gif