Problem to start when the engine is hot

[fixkick]

hello (hola) and greetings ! Buenas noches, cómo estás. (my wife is spanish)
good , job, you did fail the ISC air hose pinch test,. hard failure (forget smog tests, they dont care if rpm is too high, or wasted fuel, just smog)
the plenum is that air chambers below the TB, and intake tunnels, that space that is at 20 inches vacuum at idle in total
if any parts of that leak (vacuum ) the engine races, and the ISC tries to correct that but fails, that includes throttle cable too tight,

the induction has a leak. (plenum)
you now blocked the 4 normal paths and it runs, this is impossible so, that proves leaks. (TV+bleed + IAC + ISC) the TV is closed, the iac is closed (its new) and the ISC is blocked and you screwing in the bleed CW, in, and there is no air to run the engine.
one poor guy here had this and , covered the TB top air horn his hand palm and it ran, oops. big leak there.
i think your leak is small.
not huge, as rpm can hit 3000 easy with any larger leak.
finding it can be hard,
using propane gas , no
flame , played around places that can leak, RPM changes , while doing so is SUSPICION.

no to look in gallery.

---

ok looked at all gallery photos.
all looks good , your exhaust manifold is different than ours, but is of no importance.

---

oops missed this point(yes tomorrows test)
see this
"So, when that hose is pinch I set the bleed screw 100 % closed gently, then I'll see what is the r.p.m. or what happen then, but I think that if ISC air hose is pinched and bleed idle screw is closed, so the engine switched off, or not ? "

yes, if you have the hose pinched (ISC air) and you screw the bleed in to seat its cone seat, all air ends. now. there is no air on a new engine like this.
now.
it must stall. there is no air now. zero air. hot engine test only. stall it must,...
the ECU will try to fight you (servo actions) but can because the ISC is pinch blocked, dead.
now only you control air , with bleed during this test (duty bleed screws air supply, on air horn of TB)

it might stall now and if it does?, that means the duty cycle was never set right. after new TB. by your mechanic.
but if it runs or tries to run, you have leaks there.

---

i think the design of the bleed, is such that it only has 1/2 the flow of the ISC ."potential"
such that, if you have a (illegal) leak , that is say 1/2 the iSC flow, max , then closing the bleed cures the effect. (cause the ISC to regulate at 50%)
in a new car there are no leaks.
and also must work at high altitude, where the ISC opens more... the higher you go, due to the thin air there.

cheers !

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4802' dateline='1446948012']
hello (hola) and greetings ! Buenas noches, cómo estás. (my wife is spanish)

Hola, buenas tardes, estoy muy bien, gracias!!..
Salúdela de mi parte (say hellow to your wife for me)..

good , job, you did fail the ISC air hose pinch test,. hard failure (forget smog tests, they dont care if rpm is too high, or wasted fuel, just smog)

Anyway, I made some videos to see much better what is going on, I can't for the moment send videos by anunimous pages as Ge.tt | Gett sharing, because my new camera Nikon made photos in "mov" type, to send by ge.tt I need to be "mpg" or "avi", but my brother shows me how to convert "mov" photos to "jpg" or "avi" by a program..

the plenum is that air chambers below the TB, and intake tunnels, that space that is at 20 inches vacuum at idle in total
if any parts of that leak (vacuum ) the engine races, and the ISC tries to correct that but fails, that includes throttle cable too tight,

OK, they are as underground and tunnels of an anthill, as a laberinth..

Smog test mean pinching ISC air hose ? You said forget it ? Anyway here you are other videos, I deleted the last video from Youtube for not to occupy site..

The fisrst video (below) is a beeter view when I start the engine in hot and idle is about 950 r.p.m, then, I accelerate a bit and the idle drop definitely at 800 r.p.m I think that small acceleration can be an important clue, you can see in the secod video for what I say that..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tiWL_L...e=youtu.be

The second video shows when I start in hot and the idle is almost 900 r.p.m and in that moment I pinch ISC new air hose..
Idle drop at 400 r.p.m and almost 300 r.p.m, but without need to give a bit acceleration by throttle pedal. That could mean something to explore ?..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Jq4yPl...e=youtu.be

the induction has a leak. (plenum)
you now blocked the 4 normal paths and it runs, this is impossible so, that proves leaks. (TV+bleed + IAC + ISC) the TV is closed, the iac is closed (its new) and the ISC is blocked and you screwing in the bleed CW, in, and there is no air to run the engine.
one poor guy here had this and , covered the TB top air horn his hand palm and it ran, oops. big leak there.
i think your leak is small.

After I made air hose test as you said me to make, I think if there is any leaks have to be small as you said..
You can see that tets in the next video and after driving 25 km when the engine is hot..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BW-_rIq...e=youtu.be

I can make the same, putting my hand on the top air horn to see what happen..

not huge, as rpm can hit 3000 easy with any larger leak..
finding it can be hard,

[/color] I agrre hard to find.. If the problem is air leakage..

using propane gas , no
flame , played around places that can leak, RPM changes , while doing so is SUSPICION.

But how and where to introduce that gas, air filter, top horn, with the engine run or off ?
In hot idle at 800 r.p.m ? or when start in hot idle fails at 900 r.p.m.?
I never did that test..

all looks good , your exhaust manifold is different than ours, but is of no importance.

I know but to now you and to see that model..
By the way, you ask me about IF tag, this is:

Santana-Motor, S.A
B-1514/C-120
VSEETV01V01101684
1500 Kg
2950 Kg
1- 710 Kg
2- 900 Kg


"So, when that hose is pinch I set the bleed screw 100 % closed gently, then I'll see what is the r.p.m. or what happen then, but I think that if ISC air hose is pinched and bleed idle screw is closed, so the engine switched off, or not ? "

yes, if you have the hose pinched (ISC air) and you screw the bleed in to seat its cone seat, all air ends. now. there is no air on a new engine like this.
now.
it must stall. there is no air now. zero air. hot engine test only. stall it must,...

We agree.. I'll do this test tomorrow because I have been doing new videos about ISC arir hose tests..
Will be interesting what happen when that bleed cone screw seated in its end and ISC air hose closed..
I'll told you all abiut..

the ECU will try to fight you (servo actions) but can because the ISC is pinch blocked, dead.
now only you control air , with bleed during this test (duty bleed screws air supply, on air horn of TB)

Yes, bleed screw with the rubber cap..

it might stall now and if it does?, that means the duty cycle was never set right. after new TB. by your mechanic.
but if it runs or tries to run, you have leaks there.

I don't understand this very well, so if the engine stall 'and if it does?' as you said, or you mean doesn't ?
This mean that if after I pinched ISC air hose, and bleed screw is seated to its ends, and the engine stall, duty cycle is not right ?..
My doubt is about the word "does or doesn't"..
Tell me that point about duty ciycle wrong, please..

i think the design of the bleed, is such that it only has 1/2 the flow of the ISC ."potential"
such that, if you have a (illegal) leak , that is say 1/2 the iSC flow, max, then closing the bleed cure the effect. (cause the ISC to regulate at 50%)
in a new car there are no leaks.
and also must work at high altitude, where the ISC opens more... the higher you go, due to the thin air there.

[color=#1E90FF]Yes, I understand about altutude..
How to set in a correct way bleed duty cycle if it is wrong by mechanic ?..

Well, another lesson ended..
Sorry, problem with letters color again, next time maybe..

Hasta pronto!!

[fixkick]

ok, the pinch test , passes, ISC air pinch. great, SO HAPPY FOR YOU ! Vacuum leaks are a pain to find.
im now scratching my head, and thinking, I wonder if Spain has there own rules for idle and your own ECU and all. (software and tables, for SPAIN.)
sorry im so ignorant about in Spain.(ECU's)
VSEETV01V01101684
VSeetV is Spain car, as you said.

OK, i think (forget that propane test, your free of leaks.)
The ISC now has plenty of , control with 400 rpm at the base.
piles of room, (as a sailors says, Lots of Freeboard mate ,we stay dry!)

Duty cycle setting easy way( hope meter works)
so hot engine. (spark timing ok, and 800 hot idle is normal for most G16s made , world wide)
idle switch closed, it is.
find the bleed screw, (expose it if covered)
then put any DMM meter 20vdc scale (DC volts) back probing back side of ISC pin connectors, (connected) from back side, (use needles on both test leads)
then set the bleed screw to 7vdc, above. (14v it high ,0 is low, set to 7v and that is 50% duty cycle.)
that is all the is to it.
use a modern meter not some relic 1980s slug meter.
that is it..

if cold idle is too low then you get the hack the stock ISC factory settings, I'd go easy on that. and not fool the ECU too much.

omg i stole your photo, but gave credit
http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...ge_11.html

the factory setting device is part marked factory bottom right.

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"The second video shows when I start in hot and the idle is almost 900 r.p.m and in that moment I pinch ISC new air hose..
Idle drop at 400 r.p.m and almost 300 r.p.m, but without need to give a bit acceleration by throttle pedal. That could mean something to explore ?.."

this is a passing test, for air leaks,
bravo , Salud !


the lower the rpm (at test) means no air leaks and also means the engine is STRONG, and very good compression... all 100% good.

[LuisCarlos]

testing 1,2,3,
Carlos your account is working, im llogged in , here.... as you, just for 1 time.
but your PC is virus infected BIG TIME.

[LuisCarlos]

testing 1,2,3,
Carlos your account is working, im llogged in , here.... as you, just for 1 time.
but your PC is virus infected BIG TIME.

OK, I¡m content to stay here again after the storm has passed, but I have to be alert still until I can install all the protection to my laptop..
I'm going to reply the last post now, because the answer was pending..

Sorry, last time when I tried to log-in, I cilc in report, but not in reply, I undersatand what happened and for what that window report was open..
I was very tired, my brain was infected with that malware too..

But I'm more strong now like a plage of insects after using insecticide and not die

Thanks a lot..

Luis..

[fixkick]

Mr. Carlos,
sorry for your PC (issues)
btw, see the new low cost tool i found that can do Duty cycle on your care easy.

post 24, im testing the meter , using ISC Driver, simulator. to be sure it works at 200HZ and 12-14vdc.
http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/s...768&page=3

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many regular DMM meters, do not work, about 1/2 dont , the expensive Fluke 87v 88v (v = vehicle) are $400 to $800 USD,
these new meter seen on ebay (bought just for that and for the tach/dwell modes)
works. all three features work,

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4842' dateline='1447186638']
ok, the pinch test , passes, ISC air pinch. great, SO HAPPY FOR YOU ! Vacuum leaks are a pain to find.
im now scratching my head, and thinking, I wonder if Spain has there own rules for idle and your own ECU and all. (software and tables, for SPAIN.)
sorry im so ignorant about in Spain.(ECU's)

[/color]Don't worry about, but I think that rules are the same because the manual rules in English and in Spanish are identics..
Well, that is my opinion only..

But as I told you before that after two days passed from that test, I pinched ISC air hose with my fingers again but this time idle barely drop to 700 r.p.m only...
I did the same to the next day and the result was teh same 700 r.p.m as a lotery..
So I'm going to do the same test closing with a cap the ISC nozzle after remove the air hose, and close it with a cone in its end, thrn I'll colse the bleed screw gently and tnen we'll see what happen by a video..

I'll do other test will be closing the mean air inlet from the filtet..

Duty cycle setting easy way( hope meter works)
so hot engine. (spark timing ok, and 800 hot idle is normal for most G16s made , world wide)
idle switch closed, it is.
find the bleed screw, (expose it if covered)
then put any DMM meter 20vdc scale (DC volts) back probing back side of ISC pin connectors, (connected) from back side, (use needles on both test leads)
then set the bleed screw to 7vdc, above. (14v it high ,0 is low, set to 7v and that is 50% duty cycle.)
that is all the is to it.
use a modern meter not some relic 1980s slug meter.
that is it..

Yes, I saw that test in Suzuki rhino manual and I found the DLC in the vitara hidden under the right head light..
But while I was checking the engine room again I discovered that the gasket on the TBI top is very deteriorate, so I'm waiting that the new onw come, so I went again to mechanic to tell him everthyng about we are in the Forum, he said OK, so he said he did the duty cycle with the OBD, and I think twice, when fist time he installed the TBI, and when I took the vitara again, but I think he did duty cycle in the ECM, not in DLC, because the DCL plug was intact, whitout nobody had opened it never, dirty, as an archeological item..

Then, he said 'when that gasket come, bring the vitara here I'll put it', but I said 'don't woory I''ll do it'..
Then he said 'if the leaks (toma de aire in Spanish) continue, bring the car to checking it again'..
But this time together he and I checking the vitara..

if cold idle is too low then you get the hack the stock ISC factory settings, I'd go easy on that. and not fool the ECU too much.

[color=#800080] I'll tell that to the mechanic..

omg i stole your photo, but gave credit

http://www.fixkick.com/fresh-air/Slide_S...ge_11.html

You can use all my photos as you want and anywhere you like..

the factory setting device is part marked factory bottom right.

Where is that bottom ?

"The second video shows when I start in hot and the idle is almost 900 r.p.m and in that moment I pinch ISC new air hose..
Idle drop at 400 r.p.m and almost 300 r.p.m, but without need to give a bit acceleration by throttle pedal. That could mean something to explore ?.."

this is a passing test, for air leaks,

That was before I'll do that test again as I said you above, I hope there is not a lotery become worse than malwar's nightmare..

the lower the rpm (at test) means no air leaks and also means the engine is STRONG, and very good compression... all 100% good.

[color=#800080] Yes, the engine is in a perfect conditions, and the car too, for that I like to continue with it..

You can see that gasket deteriorate in gallery, anyway, I don't think that it's the problem about start in hot..

I'll try to put a photo here I think is clicking in "insert image" icon under [CLOSE TAGS]..

Cheers!! and Thanks!!

---

[quote='fixkick' pid='4935' dateline='1447852976']

Mr. Carlos,
sorry for your PC (issues)
That's OK, I'll install everything to protect my PC including your links..

btw, see the new low cost tool i found that can do Duty cycle on your care easy.[php]

post 24, im testing the meter , using ISC Driver, simulator. to be sure it works at 200HZ and 12-14vdc.
http://www.fixkick.com/bbs2/Suzuki-bbs/s...768&page=3

---

many regular DMM meters, do not work, about 1/2 dont , the expensive Fluke 87v 88v (v = vehicle) are $400 to $800 USD,
these new meter seen on ebay (bought just for that and for the tach/dwell modes)
works. all three features work,

I'll wait what the mechanixc said, I'm looking and studying in the manual 6E-63 how to do duty cycle, I have to buy a meter only or some one lend me, no problem..
I inserted two new photo in the gallery..

We in touch..

[fixkick]

Vsig: 96, 8v , Spanish made (Santana factory) with DLC moved from battery front to RF head light shell rear, like our 96s but ours are all 16v.... my DLC page cover that......
so...
if the pinch test fails , duty cycle can never be set.!
when the pinch test fails, that means there is at least 1, large vacuum leak.
that TB air horn gasket, which one?
the one in the center of the TB must not be cracked, but is not , the TB is new.
what the air horn gaskets only keep out dirt, in the induction and do not change idle speeds or effect duty cycle ever.
the 8v fails pinch test for the following.
all vacuum leaks below the TV (throttle valve buttery fly plate)
TV plate not closed 100% for any reasons what so ever, at idle, Dashpot is retracted now.
vacuum hoses. leaking, any or all.
TB base gasket leaking
the TB base gasket missing or cut by and the the cutter, man allowed the 5 small hole there to be OPEN, (wrong) they must be closed, off.
this 5 holes are factory drilling's (they are called) that create internal passages, when manufactured, and most be closed.
brake booster leaks. (some do , randomly , each brake pedal movement, common on old cars this, easy to proof, block the booster hose)
EGR base gasket leaks, or EGR main cracked in half, as they are loth to do.
intake manifold gaskets bad. (or missing)
IAC stuck open, its new, but the water hose sure can be clogged, and ISC is not at 180F (IR guns show, 170f about)

as long as the car has vacuum leaks , any other steps is useless,. Idle speeds, spark timing, and duty cycle setting.
totally useless.
the 8 races for any and all vacuum leaks, and zero are allowed, (tiny yes, but not if it raises idle beyond ISC controls)


tests? (hot engine all)
with the HOT idle bleed screw turned fully CW, In, what is rpm now hot? not pinched, (can be 800 or rpm drops greatly as ISC loses control)
then
with the bleed screwed in, what is RPM now hot, then ISC hose pinched. engine must stall.

with bleed unscrewed, fully , (out removed) the pinch test usually does 400 rpm. at least. the bleed is the only air supply (pinched)

if doing DUTY cycle setting with leaks (vacuum)
you will see that the ISC is dead,
or can not get near 50% (with leaks the duty will be closer to 0%)
this is because the ISC can not close farther that 100% once closed, the duty is stuck at 0% (limited)

[fixkick]

the pinch test.
hot engine.
1/2 the air for 800 rpm power, comes from ISC
and 1/2 the bleed. (when duty is at 50%)
there are no other air supplies
armed with those facts.
you can pinch the ISC, if RPM does not, cut in half,(1/2) or stall?, then at the same time ,turn the BLEED CW. (closing this last supply of air)
the RPM MOST FALL to 400 or stall. if not? there IS A LEAK (vacuum)
IF SAY IT DId, then the bleed was turn all the way out, letting in huge amounts of air.

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usually when you have say a small air leak (vacuum) and idle is too high

and you start turning the bleed screw CW, at some point the ISC wakes up(its not pinched now) and idle Locks in at 800rpm , regulating.
The bleed screw can hide some small leaks, (with in the range of the bleed, and ISC)
but most leaks get worse in time, and above is just a band-aid to nowhere...

---

once i get an engine running right ,not misfiring, or bogging, i do this test (pinch) and bleed checks,per above
before doing any duty cycle tests or precision spark timing. (timing needs idle near 800 +freeze jumper)
if there are no major leaks , i then do the duty cycle calibration and for sure, on all new Throttle-bodies.

and we have a cheap meter that works now. off ebay.
i just tested it from 5v to 18v and a wide ranges of ISC frequencies (or is 200hZ) it works great.

keep in mind all 8v engines make full power, with vacuum leaks, the engine might scream and make huge power when the iSC looses control.

[LuisCarlos]

[quote='fixkick' pid='4938' dateline='1447863556']
Vsig: 96, 8v , Spanish made (Santana factory) with DLC moved from battery front to RF head light shell rear, like our 96s but ours are all 16v.... my DLC page cover that......

Yes, there are some changes here, as EGR also, my vitata has it like carburator model I saw it in the manual in page GJ-18, without coupler to connect to ECM, but the manual said in fuel injection system GE-89 that EGR is electronic valve..
Have to be more differneces too..

so...
if the pinch test fails , duty cycle can never be set.!
when the pinch test fails, that means there is at least 1, large vacuum leak.

You are right, you can see below what I think is the best test..

the one in the center of the TB must not be cracked, but is not , the TB is new.

Yes, that gasket is new and it's in right condition, it came from Santana installed between thw two semi-body..[/color]

what the air horn gaskets only keep out dirt, in the induction and do not change idle speeds or effect duty cycle ever.

You are right, it don't change idle spped but because I dind't know that and as I saw it a little deteriorate I changed it..
[/color]

the 8v fails pinch test for the following.
all vacuum leaks below the TV (throttle valve buttery fly plate)


I suspect that also, you can sse below why I say that..
[/color]

TV plate not closed 100% for any reasons what so ever, at idle, Dashpot is retracted now.

TV plate is butterfly in metal color ? It closed 100 % I saw it when I install air horn gasket, I retrated by hand the D/P and I saw nad tested it closed 100 %

vacuum hoses. leaking, any

I installed all vacuum hose new but not from the canister fuel tank [/color]

TB base gasket leaking

That is one of the more suspicious candidate after you told me about those five holes tha must to be covered..

the TB base gasket missing or cut by and the the cutter, man allowed the 5 small hole there to be OPEN, (wrong) they must be closed, off.

Yes, that is I mean..


this 5 holes are factory drilling's (they are called) that create internal passages, when manufactured, and most be closed.
brake booster leaks. (some do , randomly , each brake pedal movement, common on old cars this, easy to proof, block the booster hose)
I'll do that test in that booster too.. [/color]

EGR base gasket leaks, or EGR main cracked in half, as they are loth to do.

When I did test ISC air hose pinched and bleed was closed also, and the idle speed become drop 400 r.p.m I pressed with my finger EGR diaphragm and then the engine stall.. The manual said also when the engine is in idle hot, pressure EGR with finger and the engine have to reduce or stop,..
I'll do that test too..

intake manifold gaskets bad. (or missing)

I checked it but I can't see nothing about, but is another possibility, I can change it too..

IAC stuck open, its new, but the water hose sure can be clogged, and ISC is not at 180F (IR guns show, 170f about)

I'll see that also..

as long as the car has vacuum leaks , any other steps is useless,. Idle speeds, spark timing, and duty cycle setting.
totally useless.
Of course..

tests? (hot engine all)
with the HOT idle bleed screw turned fully CW, In, what is rpm now hot? not pinched, (can be 800 or rpm drops greatly as ISC loses control)
then
with the bleed screwed in, what is RPM now hot, then ISC hose pinched. engine must stall


with bleed unscrewed, fully , (out removed) the pinch test usually does 400 rpm. at least. the bleed is the only air supply (pinched)


I did that test: when ISC air hose was pinched, it drop at the middle of the gauge toy, then with that air hose pinched, I close the bleed screw to the end gently, then the idle drop to the white line next to 0 in gauge toy, but the engine don't stop..

You can see in this video the true problem we are treaying to compare it with the following, you can see also I give a little accelerate to drop th idle to 800 r.p.m
like I'm doing from about four monyhs ago..

I tried to insert video by GE.TT shar,e but had been unssuccefull, so I have to use YouTube again, just three houres to finish this post..
Because I have to use the keyboard with two finger and looking the screen all the time, if I try to run, I get mistake to expot..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjErgLE...e=youtu.be

You can see in this second video what happen when the engine is hot and I start it but the ISC coupler is disconnected, after some seconds I connect it again..
I can't insert these vidose and some photos with GE.TT, for not overload the photo gallery, but the forum said 'you can't because 30 images is not allowed, only 10..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8SwYEyLmqs

Next video is probably the most evidencial test I did, I bloked the mean air entrance with my hand.. But the engine don't stop, you can hear that sound, as a water pump does when any bearing is in bad condition.. It seems like a flute or other instrument when the air is entering..
Sound above the engine but I think nearly to the TBI..
What will be it ?.. A hurricane ?

I did it twice..

You can hear a car leaveng the parking too..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQTYj7n8...e=youtu.be

Well, I think we have a huge leak as you say, but I'm very content because if is so, that mean there are not problem with TBI or ISC, IAC failing or duty cicle, at least to do it later and in right condition witout any leak pending..



I think the vitata is going to be OK before I learn to put color in a right way in the Forum, of course too and sorry..
Perhaps is OK now..

Well, I have to go now..

We in touch later..

Cheers!!