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2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp
#31
real nice work there ,testing the ECT reads perfectly
so now we know the 240F is real (sorry but that is now proven)
and that means out of control thermostat. if sure it's a J18 or J23 stat in there and not g16 then it is good, and not backwards and bleed hole is at top)
then it must be.
the out of control is caused by the fans do not blow enough air, if the engine runs at 180f moving fast then the fans are no good.(parked)
if 240f happens moving fast the radiator is too small, if there is plenty of fan flow, for sure below tested.
try running the AC condenser fan any time the 2 fans you added at the same time, for 3 fans at once both parked and moving to see if temps hold at 180f as they should.

240f is real we must work that cause now.
the ECT is placed i the hottest point in the loop.
the Thermostat is in the coldest spot in the cold end of the radiator. I actually sucks cool RAD coolant.
But the trick on this car is the hose /pipe that wraps the engine rear feeds hot coolant to the thermostat base. this must flow hottest coolant or the thermostat will fail.

I do hope you find out the cause, fans or rad sized wrong.
not sure here. not sure what 2.3L needs.
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#32
(07-29-2019, 12:49 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-27-2019, 09:58 PM)fixkick Wrote: the sensor is easy to test in a pan of water, even just 2 tests,  room temp 20C and then 80c,  using  any DMM + ohms mode.
safe and  simple and not risk to car.

the data I took on mine is here , see my charge see right columns
ignore the 2 errors I made here, (blush) 5030 and 5200 (midnight typos,,,,
https://fixkick.com/ECU/temp-sensors.html

if you look on my chart those voltages may work.  180F , if you back probe the sensor you see 0.65 volts CD , way less is and overheated engine or bad ECT.(or wrong ECT or china $5 knockoff sensors)
 
 I pulled the ECT to test in a pan of water.    To 'plug the hole' I put the ECT from my other motor and tightened it up and let the motor run to temp.
 I got nearly the SAME results.   

 To test the ECT in a pan I did the following.

 Aluminum pot  
 Candy/Fryer type Thermometer that can range from 100 - 450
 Meter set on Ohms at 2K ,  My meter does't have a 1K setting. 
 Alligator clips to leads attached to the ECT.   I cut a piece of a drinking straw to use as a shield of the middle lead so clips couldn't touch.
 Suspended the ECT with a wooden spoon and a clamp to keep it off the bottom of the pan and filled water up to the top of the threads and not the plastic.

 Here are my readings.  I took photos of each temp reading.
  
  120 degrees  -   .981
  140 degrees  -   .631
  160 degrees  -   .430
  180 degrees  -   .302 
  200 degrees  -   .217
  212 - full boil  -  .188  

  First of all I 

  Picture you posted on IMGUR states at 

  140 degrees it should be 0.584 
  176 degrees it should be 0.303 -0.326    

   Would these readings be considered 'in scope' of what I should expect to see?     I think so. 

   And the fact that I was getting SIMILAR readings of the ECT I have in now.

   When I got the car I had a chance to pick up a known good PCM to have a spare for a decent price so I picked it up. 
   I plugged it in this weekend and rand the engine up and got the same results.  
   To me it validates the ECT readings I am getting.   

   I've tried as many ways I can think of to validate the results,  multiple scanners, multiple ECTs and multiple PCMs.  All with the same results.

   I have also located a few others who have done the same swap with a J23 into their Sport.   They will hook up a Scanner to their vehicles soon
   and will share their results with me.  I'm trying to get the most information I can for comparison.

   I also forgot you asked for measurements of the ECT sensor directly off the vehicle.      
   I took them when the ODB2 scanner showed 225 Degrees, with the ECT I swapped in.

   225 degrees, .178  

   I honestly can't wrap my head around these temps and what's wrong?      

   I really think I've worked more cooling capacity into the configuration with the bigger radiator and the dual fans to deal with the 500 additional CCs.

   Guess I am wrong.
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#33
Rock Auto suggests thermostat numbers are same for J18 and J23. I'll confirm/deny this with actual Suzuki part number now that I've found a site I can get them from .

I'll get the right stant thermostat and replace what I have as I now question the car quest one I have now. I'll test it with hot water before installing. I know how to install it oriented properly.

I'll make an attempt at finding Aerio radiator size to see how much different it is in size from the V6 Vitara one I have now.

As for testing the coolant tube. I'll ask questions if I need to get that far.
Reply
#34
(07-30-2019, 01:19 AM)thebanjoman Wrote: Rock Auto suggests thermostat numbers are same for J18 and J23.   I'll confirm/deny this with actual Suzuki part number now that I've found a site I can get them from .

I'll get the right stant thermostat and replace what I have as I now question the car quest one I have now.  I'll test it with hot water before installing. I know how to install it oriented properly.

I'll make an attempt at finding Aerio radiator size to see how much different it is in size from the V6 Vitara one I have now.

As for testing the coolant tube.  I'll ask questions if I need to get that far.

Dimensions. 

Aerio. 13.75 x 28.25 x 1. 388 cu in 
Sport.  16.75 x 19 x 1.  318 cu in

Diff 70 cu in 

These are outside diameter not actual volumes but yes the sport radiator is smaller by  about 20 percent.  Of course these are VERY rough estimates.  

I also guess I should find out the cfm rating of Aerio stock fan too.

There is room to have a thicker aluminum radiator made to Sport dimensions but I hope it doesn't come to that.
Reply
#35
(07-30-2019, 01:41 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:19 AM)thebanjoman Wrote: Rock Auto suggests thermostat numbers are same for J18 and J23.   I'll confirm/deny this with actual Suzuki part number now that I've found a site I can get them from .

I'll get the right stant thermostat and replace what I have as I now question the car quest one I have now.  I'll test it with hot water before installing. I know how to install it oriented properly.

I'll make an attempt at finding Aerio radiator size to see how much different it is in size from the V6 Vitara one I have now.

As for testing the coolant tube.  I'll ask questions if I need to get that far.

Dimensions. 

Aerio. 13.75 x 28.25 x 1. 388 cu in 
Sport.  16.75 x 19 x 1.  318 cu in

Diff 70 cu in 

These are outside diameter not actual volumes but yes the sport radiator is smaller by  about 20 percent.  Of course these are VERY rough estimates.  

I also guess I should find out the cfm rating of Aerio stock fan too.

There is room to have a thicker aluminum radiator made to Sport dimensions but I hope it doesn't come to that.
wow, lots or area in that Aerio,  388.
what  about a v6 grand vitara ,  I wonder what size it is.? H x L.

here is hoping a better ,  thermostat helps.....! cheers !
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#36
(07-30-2019, 03:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:41 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:19 AM)thebanjoman Wrote: Rock Auto suggests thermostat numbers are same for J18 and J23.   I'll confirm/deny this with actual Suzuki part number now that I've found a site I can get them from .

I'll get the right stant thermostat and replace what I have as I now question the car quest one I have now.  I'll test it with hot water before installing. I know how to install it oriented properly.

I'll make an attempt at finding Aerio radiator size to see how much different it is in size from the V6 Vitara one I have now.

As for testing the coolant tube.  I'll ask questions if I need to get that far.

Dimensions. 

Aerio. 13.75 x 28.25 x 1. 388 cu in 
Sport.  16.75 x 19 x 1.  318 cu in

Diff 70 cu in 

These are outside diameter not actual volumes but yes the sport radiator is smaller by  about 20 percent.  Of course these are VERY rough estimates.  

I also guess I should find out the cfm rating of Aerio stock fan too.

There is room to have a thicker aluminum radiator made to Sport dimensions but I hope it doesn't come to that.
wow, lots or area in that Aerio,  388.
what  about a v6 grand vitara ,  I wonder what size it is.? H x L.

here is hoping a better ,  thermostat helps.....! cheers !


   OK   I went on Suzukicarparts.com  looking at details     This site lists SAME part for Aerio (j23) vs Sport (J18)   
   Rock-Auto also lists the SAME Thermosta
   Suzuki Car Parts

  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Aerio
  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Sidekick Sport
   
  Rock Auto

  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00}
  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00} 

  Stant Website lists for 2005 Aerio  (this is my year motor)  14378 . Same as Sidekick Sport. 

  So I will order a Stant 14378.  I took Car Quest's word for the thermostat that they gave me. 
  It DID fit but does it work the same??   I have no ideal.

  I'll get a Stant, put it in and retry my tests.
Reply
#37
(07-30-2019, 08:14 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 03:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:41 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:19 AM)thebanjoman Wrote: Rock Auto suggests thermostat numbers are same for J18 and J23.   I'll confirm/deny this with actual Suzuki part number now that I've found a site I can get them from .

I'll get the right stant thermostat and replace what I have as I now question the car quest one I have now.  I'll test it with hot water before installing. I know how to install it oriented properly.

I'll make an attempt at finding Aerio radiator size to see how much different it is in size from the V6 Vitara one I have now.

As for testing the coolant tube.  I'll ask questions if I need to get that far.

Dimensions. 

Aerio. 13.75 x 28.25 x 1. 388 cu in 
Sport.  16.75 x 19 x 1.  318 cu in

Diff 70 cu in 

These are outside diameter not actual volumes but yes the sport radiator is smaller by  about 20 percent.  Of course these are VERY rough estimates.  

I also guess I should find out the cfm rating of Aerio stock fan too.

There is room to have a thicker aluminum radiator made to Sport dimensions but I hope it doesn't come to that.
wow, lots or area in that Aerio,  388.
what  about a v6 grand vitara ,  I wonder what size it is.? H x L.

here is hoping a better ,  thermostat helps.....! cheers !


   OK   I went on Suzukicarparts.com  looking at details     This site lists SAME part for Aerio (j23) vs Sport (J18)   
   Rock-Auto also lists the SAME Thermosta
   Suzuki Car Parts

  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Aerio
  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Sidekick Sport
   
  Rock Auto

  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00}
  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00} 

  Stant Website lists for 2005 Aerio  (this is my year motor)  14378 . Same as Sidekick Sport. 

  So I will order a Stant 14378.  I took Car Quest's word for the thermostat that they gave me. 
  It DID fit but does it work the same??   I have no ideal.

  I'll get a Stant, put it in and retry my tests.

 The Denso 221-4801 Radiator that I have is a V6 Grand Vitara radiator.
Reply
#38
(07-30-2019, 08:34 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 08:14 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 03:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:41 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:19 AM)thebanjoman Wrote: Rock Auto suggests thermostat numbers are same for J18 and J23.   I'll confirm/deny this with actual Suzuki part number now that I've found a site I can get them from .

I'll get the right stant thermostat and replace what I have as I now question the car quest one I have now.  I'll test it with hot water before installing. I know how to install it oriented properly.

I'll make an attempt at finding Aerio radiator size to see how much different it is in size from the V6 Vitara one I have now.

As for testing the coolant tube.  I'll ask questions if I need to get that far.

Dimensions. 

Aerio. 13.75 x 28.25 x 1. 388 cu in 
Sport.  16.75 x 19 x 1.  318 cu in

Diff 70 cu in 

These are outside diameter not actual volumes but yes the sport radiator is smaller by  about 20 percent.  Of course these are VERY rough estimates.  

I also guess I should find out the cfm rating of Aerio stock fan too.

There is room to have a thicker aluminum radiator made to Sport dimensions but I hope it doesn't come to that.
wow, lots or area in that Aerio,  388.
what  about a v6 grand vitara ,  I wonder what size it is.? H x L.

here is hoping a better ,  thermostat helps.....! cheers !


   OK   I went on Suzukicarparts.com  looking at details     This site lists SAME part for Aerio (j23) vs Sport (J18)   
   Rock-Auto also lists the SAME Thermosta
   Suzuki Car Parts

  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Aerio
  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Sidekick Sport
   
  Rock Auto

  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00}
  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00} 

  Stant Website lists for 2005 Aerio  (this is my year motor)  14378 . Same as Sidekick Sport. 

  So I will order a Stant 14378.  I took Car Quest's word for the thermostat that they gave me. 
  It DID fit but does it work the same??   I have no ideal.

  I'll get a Stant, put it in and retry my tests.

 The Denso 221-4801 Radiator that I have is a V6 Grand Vitara radiator.

I had a discussion over email with Brent At Trail Tough in Oregon..    He provided this information, which I need to read up more on. 
I did use the J23 fuel injectors on the motor.

Your radiator is sufficient. A Moto Rad #2319-180 thermostat will help.
The 1.8 fuel map is not correct for the 2.3 displacement. Lean fuel air
ratio. It will run OK but hotter temperatures would be expected.
Disconnecting the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator will
increase fuel pressure to help compensate for the incorrect management.

From what I am reading, It does make sense that lean fuel air ratio will make engine run hotter.

I'm going to try this in the shop and see what happens and check on the temps.
Reply
#39
(07-31-2019, 08:03 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 08:34 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 08:14 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 03:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:
(07-30-2019, 01:41 AM)thebanjoman Wrote: Dimensions. 

Aerio. 13.75 x 28.25 x 1. 388 cu in 
Sport.  16.75 x 19 x 1.  318 cu in

Diff 70 cu in 

These are outside diameter not actual volumes but yes the sport radiator is smaller by  about 20 percent.  Of course these are VERY rough estimates.  

I also guess I should find out the cfm rating of Aerio stock fan too.

There is room to have a thicker aluminum radiator made to Sport dimensions but I hope it doesn't come to that.
wow, lots or area in that Aerio,  388.
what  about a v6 grand vitara ,  I wonder what size it is.? H x L.

here is hoping a better ,  thermostat helps.....! cheers !


   OK   I went on Suzukicarparts.com  looking at details     This site lists SAME part for Aerio (j23) vs Sport (J18)   
   Rock-Auto also lists the SAME Thermosta
   Suzuki Car Parts

  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Aerio
  1767065D00 - THERMOSTAT  Sidekick Sport
   
  Rock Auto

  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00}
  STANT 14378 {#1767065D00} 

  Stant Website lists for 2005 Aerio  (this is my year motor)  14378 . Same as Sidekick Sport. 

  So I will order a Stant 14378.  I took Car Quest's word for the thermostat that they gave me. 
  It DID fit but does it work the same??   I have no ideal.

  I'll get a Stant, put it in and retry my tests.

 The Denso 221-4801 Radiator that I have is a V6 Grand Vitara radiator.

I had a discussion over email with Brent At Trail Tough in Oregon..    He provided this information, which I need to read up more on. 
I did use the J23 fuel injectors on the motor.

Your radiator is sufficient. A Moto Rad #2319-180 thermostat will help.
The 1.8 fuel map is not correct for the 2.3 displacement. Lean fuel air
ratio. It will run OK but hotter temperatures would be expected.
Disconnecting the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator will
increase fuel pressure to help compensate for the incorrect management.

From what I am reading, It does make sense that lean fuel air ratio will make engine run hotter.

I'm going to try this in the shop and see what happens and check on the temps.

correct on PCM internal Fuel map,  but  consider these facts.
if the engine holds closed loop at idle and cruise at any speed, for sure the O2 is not a liar, nor is closed loop ever a lie ever, it is STOICH, not lean.
but when you advance your right foot or go WOT, Closed loop ends.

I say this to you so if you see 240f driving you ask your self, (and scanning and driving (2 persons safe)
you see 240 F , in closed loop , it for SURE IS NOT THE FUEL MAP. ever.

this engine also measures air flow.(MAF)  but the problem there is air  flow is converted to injection rates, and that is THE FUEL MAP job and that is wrong.
but if in closed loop, fuel trim corrects that error, if CL sets then its Stoich.
It is true the MAP is tuned 1st with Displacement of the engine,  and CR , compression ratio. then fine tuned on test track. (long hard way and good)
The 2.3L is like having a 5th 500cc cylinder, and is not trivial at all to the map, and the map is wrong, no lie.

removing the FPR vacuum only puts fuel pressure to  6PSI more and no more regulation will cause horrible flooding at all speeds, but WOT.
The 6psi will burn the CAT up in short time.  the CEL lamp blinks warning  you it is.
never do that , sure very short test to see if lean is cured, but gee your PCM not once showed lean code,s nor trim way off track.
you can even log trim data (LTFT) long only and drive to see if trim loses control.


the most easy cure if 240 only happens at OPEN LOOP and not told to me yet that is true,
is that you'd have to make vacuum correcting device to the FPR just just like turbo guys do....

a custom FPR does this, one can use the rising rate of TURBO boost FPR input to set in a fixed, voltage for 500 more cc's 
One could just watch trim at idle, and tune the FPR to a pressure that gets trim near zero.
then check it at WOT, and if off there compromise the setting, 

this is the most easy fix, up to 60PSI you have.

the fix if lean really happens WOT and/or only accelerating is a new FPR,  after all its only fraction of cost of custom ECU and programming and dyno turning.
http://www.fixkick.com
Reply
#40
so far all we know is 1 fact (besides 500cc more displacements)
is the thermostat is bad or out of control.
that is just one fact that needs to be worked, but testing for lean sure.
scanning and logging data will prove that.

my scan tool connect so a real PC, and I can log TPS, ECT, IAT, RPM , load, MAF readings , LTFT. all at once and log over time. (and if CLosed loop fails in any way not normal)

if lean is a worry why not monitor CL and LTFT first. if the engine overheats in CL mode, it is NOT lean. not now not ever.
the O2 sensor is your KEY ELEMENT to prove that and it knows NOTHING ABOUT DISPLACEMENT OF ENGINE.
keep in mind too the engine, at idle uses same air flow 1.8 liter as 2.3 (a tad more for inefficiency yes)
so if overheats parked, that is not any firmware MAP, parked, its not enough air flow, if the stat is good. not near enough.
that is why i wanted to do parked, for that reasons and for the safety reason, if car can be diagnosed parked, this is safer for you.
sure if that is fixed first , then maybe pulling loads up a huge hill , only overheats engine, but we still need to fix parked first. as we all know if that is cured first you might just luck out on the worst case, after all too, is moving fast lots more free air flow there.
http://www.fixkick.com
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