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2.3 DOHC motor - correct operating temp
#11
(07-23-2019, 10:36 PM)fixkick Wrote:
(07-23-2019, 10:25 AM)thebanjoman Wrote:
(07-22-2019, 04:59 AM)fixkick Wrote: why not make a diagram of YOUR custom car and show arrows and letters A,B,C and temps seen at each point and METHOD. then we can talk intelligently. (im 71yo)

the 3 key temperature points are
A= ECT housing, scanned with real scan tool and IR gun,  180 might show 175 with gun,as it always reads a tad cooler (heat sinking effects) the ECT IS #1 !!!!!!!!!!!!
B: = housing 13 ,cold water input to THEMOSTAT,  note the queer reverse flow>?
C: = 22,  this key pipe sends hot hot water 180f to the base of the thermostat wax pellet, if not flowing the thermostat surges !!!!!!!

The idea of running an engine at idle at a stop light at 220-240 degrees (where?with what tool)with fans running is absolutely terrifying to me.  260f i the boil point of 50AF at 12PSI.
ever hold the water pump in hand at the build and not see this>?
https://fixkick.com/Cooling-engine/electrolysis1.jpg

you are running 50% right?
 and the cap is new, not bad. so that 12PSI to 14 happens RIGHT?
lots  of parts can be wrong.





I am used to engine temps lower than this (welcome to EFI engines) and everything I have experienced over the  years tells me to expect overheating and damage.
why say that, what matter is only this engine, not other engines or other cards,  this cars and millions like it are 200f cars at the ECT.
each time you post a number like 240 you always leave out the OBD2 ECT reading, why?  I need that .



I've put too much effort, money,  and time into swapping in the new motor to destroy it by not setting up an adequate cooling system so I wanted more measurements and not just a simple needle in the main gauge cluster.  (factory cluster) {or custom clusters water ,oil psi, volts|}? try to be specific each time what gauge eyes land on, ok?



 when I saw them on the APP and ODB2 scanner, to me that something had to be wrong and inaccurate.  THAT IS THE ECT !  I can scan that car with 10 tools and 10 computers.
all read 180f with 180f stat.
No mention of how the fans work (auto , manual or  some funky sensor setup and relay controlled fans?)  the fans need to be on all the time now what the FACTORY #17 fans is now MISSING, surely I can not guess what any custom setup is until you document it,  nor can any shop do that on any custom car, lacking such facts.


software,  why not use a second OBD2 scan tool even a hand held tool, not some lame APP:  a real tool that a shop uses?  why trust  any 1 tool,  for sure cell phone APP< that?

So if these temps reported by the app are normal (I've looked all over the Internet and didn't find anything really on normal operating temps of the J series motor) 
why would you look at internet data,  all you will see is lies, due to bad cooling systems and not custom like yours,  Id never do that, I see PHYSICS, to find problems.
they sell themostats at 160, 170, 180 ,193, 195 and 200f (the last one in USA is EFA mandated, 180f on old
The ECT must read 200f on your car.


if the engine is too hot at test point A: ECT shows not 180 but 200 +
that means the thermostat is bad, or the pump not flowing or the fans are too week or the core of the RAD is UNDERSIzed (thermal dynamics answer not we rumors)
the engine is not lean, the engine CEL is not glowing for flashing and the scan tool shows CLOSED LOOP STATUS and not DTC stored or pendiing
if you see the thermostat lose control (ect proof only) then that  means B is failing , if B does not show proper coolant 50%AF thermal drop  near 50% drop if engine gets too hot. then the coolant flow is too low (pump blades missing) or rad to small or the fans too week.
TEST POINT B is super important,  this is the COLD INPUT< an must not BE OVERHEATED.


old dog to old dog, us !  cheers.

So I took some measurements with an IR thermometer right after I got home at idle and I was seeing close to 220 temps near the sensor at the back of the motor  ECT?

but still getting 190 at the gauge near the flex hose near the radiator (top hose, ? rubber hose at RAD TOP, ? IR gunning rubber is not accurate )
why measure rubber with pipe #1 is metal, i see #1 in your photo why not measure that. but really is same as ECT after all #1 is ECT output flow,  so is same, !


 and read 187 with the IR,    Measurements down the tube got lower as I moved forward. (I do not understand this at all what down tube use numbers or make your  own drawing?


I didn't expect to see a 30 temp drop along the tube but it was there.  (where is there ) and IR guns do not measure water only the material point at, so is not water(coolant)
measure only METAL ok?  the down tube guess you meant, cold water from bottom of RAD to the #13 thermostat cap, why not measure only #13 here?  aluminum never rubber.


In the past when I have installed these gauges(web link to them missing) they have been right at the exit of the motor near the thermostat on old GM Iron by tapping into the thermostat housing, this method can't apply here.  (you still did not read my reverse flow statement , and your old cars were not reverse flow.
so does not apply is right, for SURE, only the ECT is the right spot , and is why the ENGINEER PUT IT THERE<ON PURPOSE by DESIGN.
in fact if the ECT loses control (seems so) then the RAD IS NOT WORKING (why remains,,,,)


I have a 2nd tube????? from the old 1.8 motor and I may put a bung on it at the back near the coolant temp and install it to get a more accurate reading with the gauge I have. It's fairly accurate but I see now my placement is off for a proper reading.  you do not need more gauges.  why ?
stop reading rubber,  x10.

So this as a learning event and It'll take me a bit to get over the terror of these temps and understand it.
260f it terror.
if the test point B: is too high the RAD is out of control,  
use A, B, C readings, first ,  and only metal, ok.

I can see that part of my problem is not articulating properly to you what I have, what I observe, and where I see it. 


10 inch fans (max cfm rating 1730cfm )  Mounted in aluminum shroud.
Denso 221-480 Radiator (new) 
Derale 16759 Adjustable Fan Controller . Sensor to turn on the fans inserted directly in the radiator 1/2 below top radiator inlet. 
Coolant new 50% premix (Prestone) , to avoid getting an improper ratio by mixing it myself.
New Radiator Cap  (Car Quest brand) 1.1 bar actual PSI rating not listed on cap.
New Thermostat 180 Degree (Car Quest brand. No, I didn't get a stant)
Scan tool   ODBLinx XL       - Bluetooth on Pixel 3XL phone  ( I do not have another type of tool)
Scan tool Application -  BOTH Torque Pro app and ODBLink software tool itself  
Needle Gauge - Referring to Stock Cluster gauge on right hand side of gauge cluster
Aftermarket gauge - Bosch with sensor placed in #10 hose with a aluminum coupler inline with hose #10 ( numbers per the diagram you supplied).

The IR readings I took were on pipe #1   Near the ECT, at the connection point to pipe #10 on metal, and at in the middle of pipe #1

I realize my Aftermarket gauge in hose #10 is providing wrong information. I understand now if I wanted to use this gauge I should have placed it closer to the ECT . What I was referring to as "2nd tube" is that I have another pipe #1 that I could weld in bung to move the sensor from my aftermarket gauge sensor closer to the ECT and replace my existing #1 pipe that is currently installed.

I will attempt to pull out the GoPro and go for a drive and stop, leaving the engine idling and capture the details and attach the video as attaching all these points with photos is very cumbersome.

I may be undeducated in this subject, I have no formal training and may not understand it fully.  
I also may not be able to explain myself well,  but i am not a total idiot.

  
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#12
that pump mounted thermostat is still a reverse flow thermostat are used on most reverse flow, suzuki's j18,20/23 at but never G16s.
1767065D00 this is the correct P/n for THIS engine,

gates is (a top brand USA)
and great hoses !!!


https://www.gates.com/us/en/ymm/search/v...Cyl.+2.3+L
http://www.fixkick.com
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#13
never use reverse flow thermostats on non reverse flow, (or the opposite of that)
and for sure not any G16 stat ever.
tell me temps on A , B and C.
see first photo above, for locations, on this exact engine, j23.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#14
what is A , B and C temp's,  A= ECT and IR gun,  B would be IR gun and C would be IR gun,
2nd worst case for hot, (not up hill loaded ) is parked,  car not moving the only way to not overheat is fans at max.  so test this first parked.  moving is more complex. x10.
 

[Image: dHAOxcS.jpg]

https://imgur.com/a/zOg7oHQ
http://www.fixkick.com
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#15
simple thermodynamics (for sure parked due to vastly easy to trouble shoot and lower risk to engine,)

if the engine overheats,
the cooling system is failing (thermostat goes out of control is CLUE #1)
or the engine is making way too much heat, and can if spark timing is way late (retarded) but on this engine, I dont believe this for sure in closed loop and runs great and not DTCs)

so we work the coolant system , all of it. skipping no stone turned over.
what is A , B and C. when the ECT reads wrong, focus on ECT first. if the ECT shows thermostat is out of control BELIEVE IT.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#16
(07-24-2019, 01:20 AM)fixkick Wrote: simple thermodynamics (for sure parked due to vastly easy to trouble shoot and lower risk to engine,)

if the engine overheats,
the cooling system is failing (thermostat goes out of control is CLUE #1)
or the engine is making way too much heat, and can if spark timing is way late (retarded) but on this engine, I dont believe this for sure in closed loop and runs great and not DTCs)

so we work the coolant system , all of it. skipping no stone turned over.
what is A , B and C. when the ECT reads wrong,  focus on ECT first. if the ECT shows thermostat is out of control BELIEVE IT.

OK,  Parked.   This is what I have.

These are hard to get to with the IR gun.. I hope I got them close enough.

1.  the screenshot from the ODB2 program itself listing temp  (torque pro)  
I know you didn't want this but you see how I can be concerned using this program.  

[Image: fixkick1.jpg]

2. Needle gauge on engine cluster

[Image: fixkick2.jpg]

3. PIPE #22  (hope I got this right, its under the exhaust manifold so I got the end of it.

[Image: fixkick3.jpg]

4.  Right beside the ECT on the housing itself. 
[Image: fixkick4.jpg]

5.  Thermostat housing

 [Image: fixkick5.jpg]
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#17
(07-23-2019, 11:47 PM)fixkick Wrote: watch this,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv67n53cUs



will post real j23 photos.,  the pump is now on left front  side of engine way down low and not high like J18/20,
the pump still has the (thermostat bypass pipe that wraps around rear of engine, and is NOT optional ever) just like J18/20.
photos soon.

the rear of engine j23 still is hot water output and with ECT just like the old J18 suzuki sport.
the water pump still has the thermostat,  and only can use j23 stats,  only.  do not buy them off ebay, or you will get the wrong one,  Napa would be my 1st pick for parts that fit,

3 photos all j23 real. (hard to find)  the photos showing rear of engine is TEST POINT A,  and ECT test POINT B  is the pump thermostat housing and test point C is the bypass tube at pump and around rear of engine, all points metal.






j23 actual,   what is temp A, B, C

https://imgur.com/a/zOg7oHQ

I have been in touch with Matt Verley on this, this was the inspiration for the swap.    He suggested using the two 10" fans. The only difference that I can tell is his is 5sp mine is Auto. 

Parts listings for thermostats (that I could find) list same for J18 and J23

I have shared photos of the tests you requested.
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#18
[quote pid='11886' dateline='1563898587']

I have been in touch with Matt Verley on this, this was the inspiration for the swap.    He suggested using the two 10" fans. The only difference that I can tell is his is 5sp mine is Auto. 

Parts listings for thermostats (that I could find) list same for J18 and J23

I have shared photos of the tests you requested.


[/quote]

well the torque pro is  lair? or the IRGUN is way off, never seen any IR gun that far off, but  stat housing can read 10 less that water inside, if car parked hot.
stat housing 152 (+20 is 172)
exit head, ect housing 123 ,super cold, very surprising why this very very hot point (the most hot of all  is cold)  not only that but 240-170 is 70 degrees off. why? IDK
bypass tube 171 (seems perfect to me 171+20 =190f so is hot feed back working,,,,,,

why not barrow scan tool and see with it reads on ECT, any tool that scans., can. such and easy test, but risky if 240 is real driving to a shop.


the IR gun can read 20 degrees less on metal hot water pipes etc, do to heat sinking effects.
one why to learn this is go 2nd car, good, use IR gun on stat house and the other endpoint from RAD large hose. (both endpoints of 2 large hoses are the metal points to check)

I found on very hot engine, you then park a car, let the car idle for 10 full minutes the IR gun reads way better, my guess it lack of air flows allow parts to stabilized parked.
thermally they stabilize.
 one other way to test IR gun, is  in an oven and use std oven thermometer and set oven to 250F? and with cook sheets inside ,open door fast shoot it with IR gun see 250.
some IR guns do not read right, seen it, others are amazing, to say the least.
but all have an offset value. (from inside the housing to the outside, not same temp,    180 >>to 170 f is common (inside to outside, metal housing, plastic, no good.
OMG is your pump thermostat housing plastic?

that ECT for you 2007/ j23 engine, suzuki has many ECT and they are not the same, wrong one will read wrong.
http://www.fixkick.com
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#19
so many obvious, checks.
does the torque pro show 200F on a 2nd car? the OBD2 does the math starting in 1996, (not like old OBD1 tools hand to do binary conversions those days are GONE)
the OBD2 tool only reads and presents in F (or C) what the ECU calculates this only the ECU does. and reports in real temperatures scales.,
if one car reads right 200f for 200 or 180f for 180F and your car is omg 60F degrees too high? that means WRONG, ECT sensor in car.
if both read wrong and too high the tool is crap, find another tool or if APP , another APP. (bad app ,or bad tool, what is easy to change for you IDK but all; shops have 2 tools, to make progress you must) or barrow one.
that is what Id do first, as the ECT never lies, unless it is a wrong sensor, or stuck in an air pocket and reads way way low or surges like mad.
once we know this, we can blame car or blame the tool.
reading coolant temps is not easy. (good IR guns do a good job but takes practice ., some are junk $10 tools are) try the top priced tool IR at harborfreight?
not saying your gun is cheap or wrong.
https://www.harborfreight.com/121-infrar...63985.html

IS your ECT readings surging ? if yes , did you use the mandatory thermostat rubber slotted ring around the themostat edges, if not the stat floats and goes MAD, then you next.
do not use paper gasket if you see that 4mm lip in the stat base housing only FACTORY (or Gates) rubber surround rings work,
http://www.fixkick.com
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#20
(07-25-2019, 02:20 AM)fixkick Wrote: so many obvious, checks.
does the torque pro show 200F on  a 2nd car?   the OBD2 does the math starting in 1996,  (not like old OBD1 tools hand to do binary conversions those days are GONE)
the OBD2 tool only reads and presents in F (or C) what the ECU calculates  this only the ECU does. and reports in real temperatures scales.,
if one car reads right 200f for 200 or 180f for 180F and your car is omg 60F degrees too high? that means WRONG, ECT sensor in car.
if both read wrong and too high the tool is crap, find another tool or if APP , another APP.  (bad app ,or bad tool, what is easy to change for you IDK but all; shops have 2 tools, to make progress you must) or barrow one.
that is what Id do first, as the ECT never lies, unless it is a wrong sensor, or stuck in an air pocket and reads way way low or surges like mad.
once we know this, we can blame  car or blame the tool.
reading coolant temps is not easy. (good IR guns do a good  job but takes practice ., some are junk $10 tools are) try the top  priced tool IR  at harborfreight?
not saying your gun is cheap or wrong.
https://www.harborfreight.com/121-infrar...63985.html

IS your ECT readings surging ? if yes , did you use the mandatory thermostat rubber slotted ring around the themostat edges, if not the stat floats and goes MAD, then you next.
do not use paper gasket if you see that 4mm lip in the stat base housing only FACTORY (or Gates) rubber surround rings work,

 I will attempt to find a way to test the accuracy of the IR gun   

 The ODBLinx XL scan tool -- I tried it with the Vendors software and Torque Pro application - Both showed close to the same readings.  I've added these details to the case I have open with them. 

 I will use the Scan tool on a different vehicle and see what temp readings it gives.  It will be a much later model vehicle 2016 Honda Civic. Mixing apples/oranges but its what I have to work with now. 
 
The sensor is the correct one for the 2005 J23 motor from an Aerio - in fact its the same part number for the J18

 The ECT readings are NOT surging.   The thermostat was installed with the ring it was oriented properly with no paper gasket
 Coolant was added with an 'air lift' system so I feel confident that I don't have air in the system. 

 I am working with a friend to use their "Launch CRP123" scan tool - this is the best I can get access to unless I pay a shop to get theirs on.
It's not Snap-on, Actron, or Autel but its what I have access to now.   We'll see what happens.

 In all honesty I hope I got the IR gun in the right spots to get decent readings.   It's tough to get around the ETC housing at the back.

The 'needle' in the main gauge cluster is the only thing so far that 'appears' to be close to accurate.
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