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Engine Stalls
03-26-2018, 05:11 AM
Post: #11
RE: Engine Stalls
(03-26-2018 05:03 AM)Joe Tracker Wrote:  
(03-26-2018 03:21 AM)fixkick Wrote:  ran great until, it didnt,
but if the PO let the gas go bad, that gas can turn to varnish , and coat every thing from from tank to the end point , injectors
if can get worse, easy with fresh gas added all those cleaners in the gas, cleans off that varnish and may then clog the system later.
a delayed effect.
but i guess the car ran ok for 2 years, every day, or 4 times in 2 years.? how long did it drive ok , when you owned it.
if the car ran ok for 2 long years, every day , id think the above varnish issue is a none ISsue.
but needs to be said, on any long term parked car,

was the tank full for those years parked, (day 1 you got it) or 1/8th full?
the lower the tank level the more likely the fuel went bad.
2 years is about max on gas life, unless special additives are put in the fuel before storage. (STABIL)
The gas cap must be good, and it's vacuum breaker working, .

engine good. compression
sparks good, no scan codes P03xx of any kind driving it hot, and running the scan tool and for sure no pending codes, many codes take 3 driving cycles to set, that is why there is pending button to push in the scanner to see NOW, whats happening NOW,
btw all scan tools sold (real, not $15 code readers ) all work on this OBD2 car. (and all sensors can be scanned , at any time, even driving)
THINGS:
Fuel pressure at spec, it is.
FPR works good, it does.,
pump shut test passes, so pump is ok

leaving map , then injectors clogged.

one other possible is gross ,main induction air leaks.

from the rear of the mAF to the intake valves, there most not be any leaks there (just the ISC/bleed screw are allowed, idle controls only)
if you get a very bad air leak, this leak bypasses the MAF and now the MAF lies. called illegal un-metered air.
my 97 had this, the huge air pipe on top broke.
the PO, removed the 2 bolts securing the main air pipe mounts. this allowed it to bounce and broke the alum. mount clean off that huge pipe, and it sucked air like mad there(backside it was, nicely hidden..... ouch)

then the main air box was deleted, and he used this silly looking motorcycle air filter, and now the mAF bounces up and down and beat it to death.
a $1000 part at suzuki, not too smart wrecking any MAF like that. (IMO)

I call those events, can't win for losing,......
also seen the boot from left (face it) main air pipe, boot missing or damaged, and again sucking air like mad and maf cant do its job, even with a good maf, even new.
or just let that boot sit loose sucking air, not using the clamps there are designed.
my 04, that same boot was installed wrong and warped, to too it all apart and wow this huge gaping hole is there as the boot, folded and sucks air endlessly.
took a new boot to fix it, it was a wreck. (due to bad service)

this engine most not be allowed to suck in metered air. (maf)

Thanks for getting back to me. To answer your questions:

1. No - you cannot use the throttle to power through the stalls. The engine just quits and the tach goes to zero. You must pull over a let it sit a few minutes. It will not re-start unless you let it sit for a few minutes.
2. I do not know the conditions under which it was stored - full tank of fuel or otherwise.
3. I have added the Techron cleaner to the fuel, but the tank was 3/4 full. I am at half a tank now. Perhaps I will add another bottle!

I will clean and test the MAF and check for air leaks. I have a new DMM I will use on the test. Then I will be back to you.

Joe Tracker

Also - it did drive great for two years. Very reliable. The only issue was leaking front crank seal and a clogged catalytic converter at about a year and half. Had the crank seal and cat replaced. The replacement cat is non-standard. I intend to have a OEM cat installed at some point. thanks again!

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03-26-2018, 10:41 PM
Post: #12
RE: Engine Stalls
ok fuel should be good, (issues related to fuel bad)
the new cat is ok, the old one failed because you are/were running way way to rich. and it melted. very common on this car, for this to happen.


the cat need not be changed out unless,
P0421 pop, lazy cat. (any cat errors like that)
or it melts
or the smog man tells you its no good.

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03-26-2018, 10:49 PM
Post: #13
RE: Engine Stalls
clean maf next, and test.
testing is cheap, way less than $1000

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03-27-2018, 07:37 AM
Post: #14
RE: Engine Stalls
The MAF appears to be good on my 1999, 1.6L Tracker. Here are the test results. The wire colors did not completely match your descriptions:

1. Power wire (left most as you look at the connector when standing in front of the car): 12.06 v (battery read 12.21 v).
2. Middle pin (output wire?) - 1.4 v with key off. After key on:
a. 2.17 v immediately after key on and engine running at idle (but not yet to operating temp).
b. 2.00 v at 800 RPM
c. 2.7 v at 4000 RPM (manual transmission in neutral and simply revving the engine to 4000 rpm).
3. Right wire: .74 mV (practically 0 v)

Also - I did notice a temporary vibration when I tapped versus simply pressing the gas peddle. I was tapping the gas peddle to bring the engine down to idle after start and some warm up. If I simply pressed the gas peddle with increasing pressure, the rev up was smooth with no vibration.

What's next? Injectors?

Thanks,

Joe Tracker
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03-27-2018, 08:17 AM
Post: #15
RE: Engine Stalls
ok ,knife edge stalls, right foot, cannot save it.
and is not the maf the tests are ok

id say spark ends, is the cause.
ECU fuses bad, rusty or with internal cracks,
if the ECU looses power, even the CEL goes dead,
as the engine stalls ,
the tacho will go dead,from say 800 to 0rpm
then the cEL must come on, does it, if not, the ECU just lost power
if the pump lost power the RPMs fall slower, and right foot can help here,
the knife edge stalls are: (LIKE A CLIFF FALL)
lost power to ECU, the scan tool goes dead at the same time, connected at the time it stalls
if the distributor fails. if the scan tool is connected, and CEL comes on, at stall, guess what, you see CKP, CMP or spark lost DtC ERRORS.
LET IT STALL ,DO NOT TURN OFF THE KEY, SEE THE ECU TELL YOU WHY IT STALLED. (all but fuel pressure can be reported, let it)

BELOW 200 RPM The ecu thinks engine is dead, then turn on the CEL, NOW ,AND FOR SURE 0 RPM
You can push start this car, keyon ,CEL on
or graVITY START, ON A hill, dumping clutch in 2nd ,gear, key on ,CEL on;

you are losing spark, (random)
are all engine grounds good? under the hood, there are many, and any found loose are bad news for EFI.

owning a scan tool makes diagnosis more easy
ecu lost comms
ECU shows errors, at stall.
ECU CEL DEAD AT END OF STALL.
P03XX Errors.

ours has FI fuse, IG-coil fuse and the dome fuse for ecu memory
not sure on 99. names of fuse.
fuses can have hair line cracks, and are a horror if true.

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03-27-2018, 12:54 PM
Post: #16
RE: Engine Stalls
(03-27-2018 08:17 AM)fixkick Wrote:  ok ,knife edge stalls, right foot, cannot save it.
and is not the maf the tests are ok

id say spark ends, is the cause.
ECU fuses bad, rusty or with internal cracks,
if the ECU looses power, even the CEL goes dead,
as the engine stalls ,
the tacho will go dead,from say 800 to 0rpm
then the cEL must come on, does it, if not, the ECU just lost power
if the pump lost power the RPMs fall slower, and right foot can help here,
the knife edge stalls are: (LIKE A CLIFF FALL)
lost power to ECU, the scan tool goes dead at the same time, connected at the time it stalls
if the distributor fails. if the scan tool is connected, and CEL comes on, at stall, guess what, you see CKP, CMP or spark lost DtC ERRORS.
LET IT STALL ,DO NOT TURN OFF THE KEY, SEE THE ECU TELL YOU WHY IT STALLED. (all but fuel pressure can be reported, let it)

BELOW 200 RPM The ecu thinks engine is dead, then turn on the CEL, NOW ,AND FOR SURE 0 RPM
You can push start this car, keyon ,CEL on
or graVITY START, ON A hill, dumping clutch in 2nd ,gear, key on ,CEL on;

you are losing spark, (random)
are all engine grounds good? under the hood, there are many, and any found loose are bad news for EFI.

owning a scan tool makes diagnosis more easy
ecu lost comms
ECU shows errors, at stall.
ECU CEL DEAD AT END OF STALL.
P03XX Errors.

ours has FI fuse, IG-coil fuse and the dome fuse for ecu memory
not sure on 99. names of fuse.
fuses can have hair line cracks, and are a horror if true.

OK. I will:

1. Check all the grounds in the engine compartment.
2. Find and check the ECU ground.
3. Check and possibly replace any fuses related to the ECU or combustion management process.

Also - I discovered some wires going to the O2 sensors that may have grounded out. The PO had the O2 sensor replaced - now nearly three years ago. They routed the O2 cable through a lifting eye mounted on the left rear of the engine, but they did not wrap or protect the wires from chafing on the eye. At least two of the wires then chafed and wore through the insulation and exposed the cores. They may have intermittenty grounded out on the lifting eye. I have since re-insulated them with electrical tape (and will put a cable guard on later). But that did not fix anything - the car had the same knife edge stalling issue when I next tested it. I do not know if this relevant, but now you know.

Thanks,

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03-28-2018, 01:29 AM
Post: #17
RE: Engine Stalls
the O2 uses 12vdc power.
and if that grounds out the ECU goes dead. and may not blow the fuse
did you look at all 3 fuse to the ECU and make sure the PO didnt put 30 amp fuses there to hid the o2 shorts.
seems its just more of the 10 things seen on all old cars,

i bet spark cuts out. I bet you,
I also bet it intermittent , and restarts work every time, do they? restarts, after the knife edge stall.
if not check spark now, dead, then add test fuel if sparks good, (spary fuel in to mAF input port , if there is a IAT sensor on the filter box as most have, use that pulled to spray fuel.
id bet its not flooding out, id stall it in the drive way (possible?) and check spark tips for soaked in fuel....

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03-29-2018, 02:25 PM
Post: #18
RE: Engine Stalls
(03-28-2018 01:29 AM)fixkick Wrote:  the O2 uses 12vdc power.
and if that grounds out the ECU goes dead. and may not blow the fuse
did you look at all 3 fuse to the ECU and make sure the PO didnt put 30 amp fuses there to hid the o2 shorts.
seems its just more of the 10 things seen on all old cars,

i bet spark cuts out. I bet you,
I also bet it intermittent , and restarts work every time, do they? restarts, after the knife edge stall.
if not check spark now, dead, then add test fuel if sparks good, (spary fuel in to mAF input port , if there is a IAT sensor on the filter box as most have, use that pulled to spray fuel.
id bet its not flooding out, id stall it in the drive way (possible?) and check spark tips for soaked in fuel....

Using my owners manual I could not find any ECU specific fuses to replace.

I did find and replace the following fuses:

1. "IG" - interior fuse block - O2Sensor Heater, Cruise Control, Ignition Coil, Meter, G sensor.
2. "Electronic Fuel Injection System" - engine compartment fuse block.
3. "All electrical loads" - engine compartment fuse block.

All fuses appear to be to spec amperages.

Where can I find the location of the ECU/PCM grounds? I found only two grounds in the engine compartment and both were tight.

1. One on the firewall near the battery - appeared to be for the battery, engine compartment fuse block, and about everything else.
2. One on the center firewall - appeared to be go into the cable bundle that connected to the Camshaft position sensor (I also cleaned the connector to the CPS and CPS ground to the engine).

I looked for a ECU ground, but its too tight under the passenger side dash. I will have to dismount the ECU/PCM to see anything.

The engine stalls have become less frequent and intense. They are now more brief, sharp hesitations (over and done with before you can react with the tach briefly dropping). After driving from 34 to 43 minutes, however, you still get the full stall (tach to zero) and must pull over. The engine will not immediately restart. You must wait three or so minutes. Thereafter the brief sharp stalls are more frequent. Perhaps the Techron is progressively working?

I also replaced the spark plugs. I tried to paste an image here and failed. The plug threads appeared oily/wet, but the tips/electrodes were dry. (I have new wires on order).

Thanks,

Joe Tracker
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03-29-2018, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 03-29-2018 10:36 PM by fixkick.)
Post: #19
RE: Engine Stalls
let me be more clear
when the engine stalled, and tach when to zero , did the CEL glow, IT MUST! if not the ECU lost power, 12DC power, (or ground to it is same loss)
if the CEL works stalled, then
then lacking a scan tool this failure is hard to find like all 1995 and older, that have no overthe counter scan tools sold.
the scan tool in almost all cases the tool tells you why it stalled, unless the fuel pump dies.
the only way to fix this car is to diagnosis it only when it stalls. after all one can not fix a working engine, nor diagnose it.
the techron will not cause the right foot to go dead, at the stall, that is spark loss, not 4 injectors going dead,
i call this intermittant spark
if you had a spark plug with ground strap attached, in the glove box.
and then took that tool you make up, using real spark plug gapped correctly
to the engine, at the stall and cranked it , youd see spark dead.
if spark was not dead, it would start, or you'd need to use instant start spray and it would start (proving loss of fuel)
for sure its loss of spark or fuel.

the problem is the car fails only for 1 minute, that is the only problem. and scan tools excel here......

here is one more trick old schoolers used, before scan tools, heck even now

the magic if propane gas. (see section with The below is a professional tool, you can make one in 1minute flat "
http://www.fixkick.com/nostart.html

first find a test port. (vacuum or this)
we run hose to the IAT port, (on mine this sensor is fitted to a air cleaner grommet rubber it simply pull out)
i insert this device hose. to ther are the engine EVAP vacuum nipple.
to make one buy and propane torch, from say walmart, the remove the nozzle and add a hose there. any hose. 8foot long? that goes from the passenger set to engine bay.

http://www.fixkick.com/tools/Propane-tester1.jpg

now run the engine, until it stalls and yell over to the helper, open the valve. now.
if the engine recovered, then you lost fuel, if not spark lost.
all with a simple home made tool.

lacking scan tool this works.

keep in mind engine spark induction coils can be very intermittent as can bad CPK or CMP sensors.

here is way2, ive used on the horribly intermittent spark
1: removed engine bay hood.
2: took my pro grade timing light and connected it to #1 spark or 4 if more easy.
3: power to the tool clip ground and clip battery lug plus red.
4: started the engine,
5: taped the trigger on gun with duct tape, (must be duct tape, i lie)
6: the light strobe flashes brightly,
7: I tape the strobe light to the wiper or or some way so its pointed to the right of car,. and i can still see the lamp flash and for sure my passenger .
8: i then drive with it flashing away madly. then engine stalls and the lamp goes dead. bingo bad spark,. if not lost fuel pressure.


a scan tool shows, code p03xx in most cases when spark fails (for sure in pending mode) or you see RPM go to zero even though the engine rpm is fast, after all if the ECU has power
and the 2 sensors work (CKP/CMP) EVEN A STALLING ENGINE SHOWS RPM , IF NOT THE spark is GONE.

Finding this lacking a scan tool is not easy
we must first prove.
1: lost spark or lost fuel
2: then prove what caused it with no help at all from the mighty scan tool. (i call this working blind)

The ECU makes the spark, it takes the 2 sensors as input and then FIRES the ignitor to make the induction coil produce spark,
The ignitor signal (coil minus lug) to make sthe tachometer work on the 89-98 car, not sure on 99.
if the tach goes to zero on say a 98 car, (on the fly ) that means the coil lost all signals from the ignitor. (or power/ground) or the ECU lost power and a scan tool shows ECU NON COMM NOW.
keep in mind the ECU makes all spark and all spark advancements.
Power to ECU good. (means ground too)
The 2 sensors not dead.(on 98 and below, only CMP need work) to run.
The ECU fires the ignitor (it charges the COIL for DWELL time, then releases it and BAM inducted spark)
then repeats.

one other way to test.
engine stalls.
wont start
crank it wot, wide open throttle, starts now means it was flooded.
no start still.
use test fuel, 1st. (spray in the IAT port if easy to pull)
or find a vacuum nipple and spray there, pulled, spray for 1 second and put back and crank.

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03-29-2018, 11:03 PM
Post: #20
RE: Engine Stalls
the car has 2 fuse boxes.
one under hood (FI is there) 15A
and one cab box, IG and dome there) 20A AND 10Amp for dome. (dome only keeps memory DTC data , from forgetting key off, if dome blows the scan tool will not work at DLC pin 16)
the FI fuse runs main relay ECU (this relay can fail too)
FI runs the CMP Hall sensor too. and is a key sensor for spark. if it dies, all spark ends, in an instant.
CKP is non hall sensor, on this car and signals weak, so the wiring to it must be very good.
DTC P0335 is this failing.
No signal from the CKP sensor with the PCM receiving 20 pulses from the CMP sensor.

I guess the 1999 has 2 COP coils and no distributor, correct? 1.6L
the ECU first transistors in the 2 cops (called wasted spark system)
the cops do not drive the tachometer
so if the TACHO goes ,dead that means the ECU saw RPM go DEAD, that means CKP when dead, or CMP dead or the ECU lost power, that is why I asked what the CEL did at the moments of the stall. (must come on)

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