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1.6 Swap Injecton problem
03-19-2017, 02:13 AM
Post: #21
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
(03-08-2017 06:12 AM)fixkick Wrote:  our 8v are all 3 wire
power
ground
cmp out.

keep i mind EPA banned here, TBI in 1992/3. calif, and after 1995, FED.

our early ECU is 2 pins. coil and power.
it makes its own spark and advance and has no CMP.

our newest sammi are all 3 wire. every one,

if I look in the parts list yours (some) had 2 wire, mag coils inside, a mag rotor and 2 wire to the coil, a pure Faraday setup> or Hall, not sure. but wildly different.

What function does the ignitor that is bolt on the ignition coil ?
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03-19-2017, 05:20 AM (This post was last modified: 03-19-2017 05:22 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #22
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
(03-19-2017 02:13 AM)loe92 Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 06:12 AM)fixkick Wrote:  our 8v are all 3 wire
power
ground
cmp out.

keep i mind EPA banned here, TBI in 1992/3. calif, and after 1995, FED.

our early ECU is 2 pins. coil and power.
it makes its own spark and advance and has no CMP.

our newest sammi are all 3 wire. every one,

if I look in the parts list yours (some) had 2 wire, mag coils inside, a mag rotor and 2 wire to the coil, a pure Faraday setup> or Hall, not sure. but wildly different.

What function does the ignitor that is bolt on the ignition coil ?



my TBI schmatic was horsed up by me to answer that exact question, its a power transistor
ever work on POINTS fired coils? like 1960s car?
the Points long ago were kicked to the curb and a transistor was replaced there, and dubb an ignitor.
zoom in here.
see my word DRIVER here. the ECU pulses the transistor there, and the transistor charges the coil , using near 8 amps of current (large)
usually the ignitor never fails unless the coil shorts. (primary shorted)



[Image: 8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg]




here is another page

http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/no-spa...CK_:_89-95


see this ? on that page
i documented the ignitor here.,
[Image: igniter1a.jpg]

see the next scope photo there,
see the top wave its of the coil minus, aka. ignitor drive signal;

the pulse is 7 M/S 7/1000'th of a second faster that the eye can blink.


[Image: cas-1000rpm-2w.jpg]
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03-19-2017, 05:26 AM
Post: #23
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
HG there is MORE VACUUM (as in inches of Mercury or HG in Latin)
the dwell is very fast, see it>
the CMP (CAS) sensor is blow, trace 2, bottom
you can see there relations ships clearly here.
CMP times it
ECU charges coil the releases it to make spark.
that huge spike seen there is not the HV side, its the back EMF spike from the primary spark coil but is same instant of spark there.

or 89/90 has none of this. this is 1991 + 8v. only here. outside usa they used this for many more years, on VITS.
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03-21-2017, 08:20 AM
Post: #24
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
(03-19-2017 05:26 AM)fixkick Wrote:  HG there is MORE VACUUM (as in inches of Mercury or HG in Latin)
the dwell is very fast, see it>
the CMP (CAS) sensor is blow, trace 2, bottom
you can see there relations ships clearly here.
CMP times it
ECU charges coil the releases it to make spark.
that huge spike seen there is not the HV side, its the back EMF spike from the primary spark coil but is same instant of spark there.

or 89/90 has none of this. this is 1991 + 8v. only here. outside usa they used this for many more years, on VITS.

Ok so if i undestand, this component (the ignitor) doesn't effect the ignition timing right?

Is the Distributor (the CMP) on this car that advance progressively the timing and not the ecu right?

Do you think that the 56b distributor can works with the orignal sammy Ignitor and ignition coil?

I found a distributor with three pins that matches with my ecu, i want to try to connect to the car and see what's going on.

I found also a 1.6 harnes but it's seems to me too difficult to me this swap, so i want to understand al the difference of the two harness ad maybe then modify my stock one.

I have a Ignitor too (and his ignition coil), i noticed that the stock one has 4 pins on it, and the 1.6 one have 3 pins.

I watched the wiring schematics and i saw that in the 1.6 one, a wire that came from the ignitor goes to ground, and the same wire on the 1.3 goes on the the A6 PIN on the ecu, but in the 1.6 system the A6 PIN is used for the power steering power switch.

What can this uncorrect lik do on the system? Can be this the cause of my malfunctioning?

All the IGNITOR PART of the Harness is different from the Samurai to the Vitara.

Please tell me what do you think about that.

i can't work on the car now, i'll do some tryng this week end.

Bye!!!


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03-22-2017, 04:09 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2017 04:15 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #25
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
first of not talking 89/90s here, (they are fuel only ECU in usa)
in 1991 or newer USA see below, all G16s

advance is the word,
the ECU does all advancing beyond where you set static timing.
total time = Static + ecu tables of timing based on COMPLEX factors,
complex factors are (RPM , load, temperature (mode) load is vacuum here., or if stuck in limphome or not)

the ignitor is just as I showed it above, its JUST a transistor (with zero brains at all)


you cant mix parts like this.
not only that but I told you there are like 4 distributors used on G16a, 8v in Europe, more for 16v
and none mix.
you can not mix electronic parts willy-nilly
there
VR sensor distrib. (+ advance vac and mech both)
CMP type, x2. distrib
Faraday coil on one Samurai there, (in the distributor, totally alien to all cars here)
do not read forums in USA< it will show simple changes that do not apply to you.
your cars are different there, all this, and ECU,

Best is to swap engine, and sensors and ecu, and harness all as one,
or you get to learn how all those parts don't play together , and endless saga....

yes here, we have one custom harness maker
and fits just stock G16a, setup usa, will not work on other cars outside here.
you have different parts there.

if i was there, id watch you
and see you pull the lid off that dizzy, rotor ,dust cap, and go, gee that cant ever work on any 56B30 ecu, ever. not with that faraday coil all in 1 second flat
see, fact is i can't see you doing all this wrong stuff. (sorry for your PAIN!)

what ever ECU you do use?
the inputs (at least) all must match that ECU
for sure,
and is simple
and wires to all that same, or custom sure.

or from a testing point of view I say>?

it runs at idle
so you jam on the the throttle, we see fuel pressure hold
we see advance go past 30 degrees
we see the injector pulses extend,.. or not.
if sparks ok then the injector must not be firing based on vacuum.
so we check vacuum
its ok
so I check the map sensor , its working too per my MAP tables and charts.
so what is wrong,? bad ECU. in this case.
at idle the injector pulses are about 3 mS.

here is my hand drawing injector PULSE , form my scope, made drawing that shows all details , dynamically

that 5mS data point is parked car, on hill the pulses go way longer, we have computer models for that, 1.6L
[Image: TBI-pwm-wave1%20.jpg]


model
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html
47/lb/hr fuel flow max on this 1 injector.
i got 10ms plus width at FULL 80hp.

so of the 10mS pulses fail to happen at WOT, full load the ECU is TOAST
(engine ok, pumps air and all that)
if the inputs are correct and the injector fails to pulse from 1.5mS (idle) to 10ms (wide open throttle up hill) then its toast.
keep in mind spark advance meets spec.
the ECU monitors spark and if it sees it fail to advance it may not advance fuel on purpose, ive never tried that lie to this ECU , but ...

that is it on low power from engine.


the CMP is not a brain of any kind here its JUST a hall sensors, (that is a coil + transistor amp and switch) zero brains,zero advance, its only a STROBE.
The Distributors here are all CMP based 91+ and all are no VACUUM no mechanical fly weights of any kind here ever again (due to USA laws in fact)
mixing parts between the old and new is not possible.


spark systems are complex
and vary by engines, year and you countries smog laws, or costs.
some newer cars have old old spark systems to keep down costs. some JDM with lots of parts missing , EGR/.O2, 2 name 2.
some have no CAT.
The parts must match up.

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03-22-2017, 04:22 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2017 04:24 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #26
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
that word dead time
is 1ms. about and means no fuel flows until the DEAD time ends, its the delay from accererating them mass of the injector pintel. (and bits there)
the the fuel flows. from that point on.
the 30uS chops seen there, are to keep the injector coil cool, (it's modulated, to cool, but the pintel does not see those 30uS chops, means does not move)
so it goes from 1.4mS to 10 mS, from hot idle to WOT flogged up a hill.
10/1000 of a second max on this 1.6L

using a scope in any shop you can watch any injector
and even see it mess up, stick or do other odd things, (books on this are in the lib)

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04-02-2017, 03:16 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2017 03:24 AM by loe92.)
Post: #27
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
(03-22-2017 04:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:  that word dead time
is 1ms. about and means no fuel flows until the DEAD time ends, its the delay from accererating them mass of the injector pintel. (and bits there)
the the fuel flows. from that point on.
the 30uS chops seen there, are to keep the injector coil cool, (it's modulated, to cool, but the pintel does not see those 30uS chops, means does not move)
so it goes from 1.4mS to 10 mS, from hot idle to WOT flogged up a hill.
10/1000 of a second max on this 1.6L

using a scope in any shop you can watch any injector
and even see it mess up, stick or do other odd things, (books on this are in the lib)

What tension must have the timing belt? It seems too loose to me, when i see the engine run it bounces a little bit.
The strange thing is that i can't get more tension moving the tensioner bearing.

The timing belt is brand new and the bearing too and i am 100% that they matches with my engine.
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04-02-2017, 07:38 AM
Post: #28
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
(04-02-2017 03:16 AM)loe92 Wrote:  
(03-22-2017 04:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:  that word dead time
is 1ms. about and means no fuel flows until the DEAD time ends, its the delay from accererating them mass of the injector pintel. (and bits there)
the the fuel flows. from that point on.
the 30uS chops seen there, are to keep the injector coil cool, (it's modulated, to cool, but the pintel does not see those 30uS chops, means does not move)
so it goes from 1.4mS to 10 mS, from hot idle to WOT flogged up a hill.
10/1000 of a second max on this 1.6L

using a scope in any shop you can watch any injector
and even see it mess up, stick or do other odd things, (books on this are in the lib)

What tension must have the timing belt? It seems too loose to me, when i see the engine run it bounces a little bit.
The strange thing is that i can't get more tension moving the tensioner bearing.

The timing belt is brand new and the bearing too and i am 100% that they matches with my engine.

please read all steps to put on the belt
there is no running tension ever,
the only tension is at , install time, ever ever after. see that tiny spring there, its sets a very very light tension, on the belt when the idle all loose at install time then the 2 turns clockwise turn then lock down booth stud and idler pulley.
my page has my steps or the oem offical pages there.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html
this is no accessory serpentine belt at all like seen on JEEP with 100 lbs force.
not ever.
yes it will bounce abit.
step 33, lash adjusters all loose or the step 36 fails.

then
see step 2 in the belt box sheet that came with new belt. seen here.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/8v-tbelt1w.jpg
then step 8

now oem
this is the real suzuki page
PDF file,, must be unzipped, now how to unzip files? 4 pages, from the serv. man.

the lifter are loose fully or the cam bias , wrecks the tension'ing step. my step 33.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/8V-FSM-Tbe...t-proc.zip
good luck

the 16v does not have step 33, due to 16valves balance the cam out.
the tension is set 1 time and lasts for 60,000 miles.

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04-02-2017, 07:47 AM
Post: #29
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
(04-02-2017 07:38 AM)fixkick Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 03:16 AM)loe92 Wrote:  
(03-22-2017 04:22 AM)fixkick Wrote:  that word dead time
is 1ms. about and means no fuel flows until the DEAD time ends, its the delay from accererating them mass of the injector pintel. (and bits there)
the the fuel flows. from that point on.
the 30uS chops seen there, are to keep the injector coil cool, (it's modulated, to cool, but the pintel does not see those 30uS chops, means does not move)
so it goes from 1.4mS to 10 mS, from hot idle to WOT flogged up a hill.
10/1000 of a second max on this 1.6L

using a scope in any shop you can watch any injector
and even see it mess up, stick or do other odd things, (books on this are in the lib)

What tension must have the timing belt? It seems too loose to me, when i see the engine run it bounces a little bit.
The strange thing is that i can't get more tension moving the tensioner bearing.

The timing belt is brand new and the bearing too and i am 100% that they matches with my engine.

please read all steps to put on the belt
there is no running tension ever,
the only tension is at , install time, ever ever after. see that tiny spring there, its sets a very very light tension, on the belt when the idle all loose at install time then the 2 turns clockwise turn then lock down booth stud and idler pulley.
my page has my steps or the oem offical pages there.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html
this is no accessory serpentine belt at all like seen on JEEP with 100 lbs force.
not ever.
yes it will bounce abit.
step 33, lash adjusters all loose or the step 36 fails.

then
see step 2 in the belt box sheet that came with new belt. seen here.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/8v-tbelt1w.jpg
then step 8

now oem
this is the real suzuki page
PDF file,, must be unzipped, now how to unzip files? 4 pages, from the serv. man.

the lifter are loose fully or the cam bias , wrecks the tension'ing step. my step 33.
http://www.fixkick.com/t-belt/8V-FSM-Tbe...t-proc.zip
good luck

the 16v does not have step 33, due to 16valves balance the cam out.
the tension is set 1 time and lasts for 60,000 miles.

Thank you
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04-02-2017, 11:59 PM
Post: #30
RE: 1.6 Swap Injecton problem
your welcome.
i even have details in the 56bxx ecu, not seen anywhere else

even shows you what chip burned up, outputs,
inputs on this ecu never blow up, fully protected they are(baring direct lightening hits, lol)
but outputs have zero protection.
and will blow up., transistors or other wise.

http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ECU-8v.html



here is my 56b30 reverse engineering work for outputs,, if you have a bad output the , path to the bad part can be traced,...
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/transistors.html

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