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Could really use some help
11-15-2016, 07:44 AM
Post: #21
RE: Could really use some help
one other way to see bogging in action?
driving, see feel it bog.

then stomp that gas pedal ! even pump it....
each stomp forces the ECU into ENRICH mode, (the ecu watches you pump the pedal, and detects this fast action and goes very rich)

if the power comes up, then fuel pressure is probably low, or the injector is 1/2 clogged.
try running Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner in it, I hate, additives, mostly, but this is very good, has benzene in it.
this benzene can clean anything, other brands are just cheap kerosene, or other useless cleaners or worse stoddard solvents (cheapest brands have that)

hope this helps you ,narrow the causes.
as can bad gas cap, see if bogging ends with gas cap removed. (if yes, wrong cap there)

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11-17-2016, 03:51 AM
Post: #22
RE: Could really use some help
OK, so I proved the theory that we are short on fuel with the carb cleaner trick. I then pulled the injector and hosed the holy hell out of it with carb cleaner and then let it soak in Sea Foam for roughly 24 hours to no avail.

I did look into fuel pressure the poor mans way and can say that it will pump alot of fuel in just the 3 seconds when the key comes on. granted i know that is not what PRESSURE its making just flow. but i did have the tank down and fuel pump out and the pump itself looked new ish and i replaced the pick up screen when i first got the rig.

I have done the pump the throttle test and that definitely seems to help and typically is the only time it can generate much power.

I spent quite a bit of time with a flash light looking in at the injector spray running butterfly with my hand and know that it is shooting a good conical pattern at idle as i can see it hitting the butterfly. but when i open it up its harder to see the pattern and could only see a slight difference in spray when it was bogging vs revving but cant hold it open that long because when rpms do finally rise they obviously rise pretty fast without a load. One thing i did find looks like a homemade wire coming from coil thats spliced in to where injector plugs into connector. I attached a pic of both ends.        

I will see if i can find some of that additive and dump some in. I also was told about a trick to try from the guy at the parts store but havent tried it yet, sounded little risky, but to somehow jump the injector with a 9V battery and make it fire hard to see if the plunger is gummed up. Where can I have an injector cleaned professionally? seems like a seal unit.

As far as actually checking fuel pressure i do not have a fuel pressure gauge and when i replaced the fuel filter the fittings were so rusty that 1 broke. so i went too a new inline filter that clamps in.
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11-17-2016, 04:39 AM
Post: #23
RE: Could really use some help
keep in mind, i blind, i can just open the hood and go, ogm, this ,that an that is wrong.
but who in the world tapped, the ignitor coil wires, and then the RED injector wire, that is pure evil there, see that liquid electricians tape there?
is the car missing the CAT< if not it too can be melted
got a vacuum Gage:? in 5min work we can see if the cat is melted inside, render 1.6L to like 0.5L engine. (pick a random number, melting blockages are random it blocking factor as is getting worse)



(11-17-2016 03:51 AM)gc73 Wrote:  OK, so I proved the theory that we are short on fuel with the carb cleaner trick. I then pulled the injector and hosed the holy hell out of it with carb cleaner and then let it soak in Sea Foam for roughly 24 hours to no avail.

I did look into fuel pressure the poor mans way and can say that it will pump alot of fuel in just the 3 seconds when the key comes on. granted i know that is not what PRESSURE its making just flow. but i did have the tank down and fuel pump out and the pump itself looked new ish and i replaced the pick up screen when i first got the rig.

I have done the pump the throttle test and that definitely seems to help and typically is the only time it can generate much power.
so that goes to enrich mode and if it makes more power, tells me fuel is restricted.

I spent quite a bit of time with a flash light looking in at the injector spray running butterfly with my hand and know that it is shooting a good conical pattern at idle as i can see it hitting the butterfly. but when i open it up its harder to see the pattern and could only see a slight difference in spray when it was bogging vs revving but cant hold it open that long because when rpms do finally rise they obviously rise pretty fast without a load. One thing i did find looks like a homemade wire coming from coil thats spliced in to where injector plugs into connector. I attached a pic of both ends.

I will see if i can find some of that additive and dump some in. I also was told about a trick to try from the guy at the parts store but havent tried it yet, sounded little risky, but to somehow jump the injector with a 9V battery and make it fire hard to see if the plunger is gummed up. Where can I have an injector cleaned professionally? seems like a seal unit. its only $20 , if you read my injector page the link to witchhunter is there and my flow reports.

never listen to store clerks magic tricks. for sure burning up a good 1ohm injector, that is not good.
and tell him the 12vdc pulses are now firing my injector great now, at 3.5ms. why do i need a battery?

the 9v may not hurt the injector or the ECU, but hotwiring and injector will ,
and besides the ENRICH mode showed you that the injector does in fact go richer, in enrich mode, so the 9v is totally useless. IMO.


As far as actually checking fuel pressure i do not have a fuel pressure gauge and when i replaced the fuel filter the fittings were so rusty that 1 broke. so i went too a new inline filter that clamps in.


a shop needs tools, vacuum gauges, compression gage, fuel pressure. (timing light)
lacking tools
one must guess. and most times costs more that the $60 total in gauges above. (all 3 sold at harbor fright for 60 bucks, less on sale less with the free discount card)

if no vacuum tool, then try driving with 02 sensor unscrewed, (makes hole there for back pressure to be relieved) and power can come back.
melted cat, or unbolt the header flange to its 1/8" to 1/4" gap there, so exhaust leak massive and huge noise, then see if power returns
if yes, cat is melted.
now fuel pressure, you are correct, squirting tests do not work on weak pumps. (low pressure for any reasons is a hard failure)
no magic, can work that out. not any.
FPR stuck open
PUMP weak
voltage to pump too low.
filter clogged, no its new sure.
injector clogged, sure the can , and yes, you cant fix that, not ever. they use ultra sound and run it backwards to get it clean

my guess, is the injector wire red, is tapped, ???? i cant see below to be sure, but I see some ratty splice on that TPS/Injector plug.
why not get rid of all wires not not stock there and that ignitor /coil

the 20 buck tools pays for it self. fuel pressure.
you use it and go, golly the pressure is low, and dont need a $200 injector, or cleaned, nor mailed in 2 directions. and down time, all for 20 bucks.
or see it ok, and send witch hunter.

staring at pump housing will not work., only pressure matters at idle and WOT. if pressure is good, the ECU will inject and fuel will flow at spec.
if not the injector is bad.


here is my flow test
http://www.fixkick.com/INJECTORS/witchHunterTBIspec.jpg
mine was ok, sent in, I had 2 , this was my spare, i kept it just in case. I needed a good injector, same with my ECU , had a spare, know good.

$22
http://www.witchhunter.com/


if pressure is at spec, then this is it,
if cat not melted and map works.

injection rates are map based.
the melted cat, can make any engine bog, or later not run at all with engine cant pump air at all now.

you need to get rid of those wiring hacks,
my guess, old alarm wiring?
or old after market cruise controls
or old MPG gauge.

recap
1: bad wiring hacks. seen
2: CAT melted? is cat missing, I cant see there. (ask for vacuum tests?, or read my page bad cat , cat tests) super easy test with one tool.
3: MAP ok,? and plenum vacuum at 20"hg at idle, and acts correctly WOT (1second), and not like #2 does?
4: fuel pressure at spec.
5: injector clean is last. if down time not an issue?, then first.? a person call,.. there. but is last in a real shop with above tools.

wot tests are like a right foot stab, no crazy 5000rpm ever. just stab it once, best with with vacuum tool attached to see whats UP?
in a real shop all tests are done in about 1hr, with tools (gauges.)
and the tech says, alls good, so the injector(s) are partially clogged as most do , car parked tool long and fuel turns to gum.\


compression,ok
all vacuum tests pass, not just one.
spark good and advances correctly,and tune up parts put to bed. (with filters) a tune up is a Hope thing, saving vast grief and down time.
fuel pressure ok at spec at idle and WOT,
map readings ok (Volt out at idle, and wot test) in my search window type map .fixkick.com
injector is clogged.



this table is what makes fuel flow on all 8v (IAT sensor matters too)

http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/my-map.html

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11-17-2016, 04:46 AM (This post was last modified: 11-17-2016 04:52 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #24
RE: Could really use some help
the issue with 9v
is some batteries made are like "IRON man powerful" (flows huge short circuit currents)

unlike the wimpy, 9v carbon battery 4 for 1 $ at dollar store.
some have huge currents on tap. and cost a lot.
so saying 9v to me, means zero.
in a modern age of 5 technologies sold..

i bet your clerk has no idea at all you run a 1ohm injector
now that 1 ohm and 9v is. 9amps current (I = V/R) ( 9 divided by 1 is equal to 9 amps)
and power is V2 /R or I x V. (V squared, div by R) or volts time amps equals watts... true power, its called. static and bad news.

calculate power now.... do so and see what happens.???
if 9amps flows, the injector burns to a crisp... this is not GUESSING.\
in a real shop we use an tool called an injector pulser that uses the makers rules on duty cycle limits !
it allows the injector to cool off between pulses, why?, same answer, it burns up, if you fail to do that.

the 10 ohm injector on the 16v can be abused this way, 10x less likely to burn up. not me but many do....
its just a very tiny coil of wire inside, burning off the insulation on said tiny wire is crazy. its also fuel cooled, that means never fire it with voltage
lacking a fuel flow ,(its a loop).
the flow is from rear of TB through the injector , out the front to the FPR, and back to the fuel tank , like a race track loop.
the FPR sets pressure at all times.

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11-17-2016, 07:28 AM
Post: #25
RE: Could really use some help
Ok I started the checklist. First thing I did was try to remove hack wire. Just cut it first then tried to start. Will not run without it. confirmed that without it motor will crank but injector is not firing. No fuel!! Soo I assume that is NOT how the injector is intended to get its voltage, from the coil/igniter. I'm going to guess this is where the problem originates. Going to check fuel pressure soon and will post that.

Thanks!!
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11-17-2016, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 11-17-2016 09:44 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #26
RE: Could really use some help
OK< Vsig, 1992 G16a 8v mt/

what wires, there are 2 places wrong, the TPS connector. and the ignitor connector /or spark coil.

no see this accurate driving its simplified, (means it shows no inline splice details, I have that too) but this is simple to read.
ECU on all 1992, run ignitor directly from ECU to ignitor and the ignitor charges and fires the coil,
the Injector is just 2 wire, both are pulsed.
red and yell. wires.
on some cars that blow up the ecu, the hot wire the injector this is hopeless. when they do that. that is why I asked you why those wires are wrong. I cant see then clearly with dirt.

see b8 and B17, this and only this works. see the colors?
now a12, pin on ecu, see it fire the ignitor? my drawings are horsed up to make them very clear whats going on.

[Image: 8v-tbi-schematic91to95.jpg]

I have them all all 8v drawings
here is the next one.

you said no fuel, but you need to know when you kill spark the ECu kills fuel in 1/10 of second.
this is true on all cars, made EFI. its so car cant do a fuel fire crashed.
so when it dont start check for spark. first. or the flash codes, flash code 41 or 42, means spark fail and ALWAYS cuts fuel.

what did you cut
the coil wire is black with red dot. The dots ignore (but not on both ends of wire) the dot I think ID's the wire for country or smog or some reasons... I dont know but the stripes matter big time.
that? I see some connected a black wire to the main coil wire.
the coil wires are
pin 1.black -white, this wire is power, 12vdc to the IG fuse. see that on the schematic? this is the transgressed wire, my guess someone wanted to steal ignition on, power, if you follow it to something, then bingo, if wire goes to nothing then get rid of it so it can short out and kill all spark dead. and blow fuse. IGcoil

pin 2, brown white this wire ,
this wire goes to the ignitor. and supressor, seems its ok. in the photos.

now the injector connector (with tps)

i can not make head or tails of your connector photo, it looks hacked, and full of back glue. but. i can see the bottom of the connector clear at that angle.
now this, see that connector, and the colors, ignore the inboard colors those vary by tps maker
see
gry-red
gray
blue-withe
gray yellow, and see where all 4 go the connector? at the left.
sure,
then see the 2 missing wires on the connector, those 2 are injector. they are not missing here, they are red and one yellow.
when I look at your photo, i see, one pin empty, oops, that be super wrong. top left in photo.\
i cant see both sides of the connector either, to see if its molested there too.
this is KEY wire here, prime EFI wires never to be messed with ever. (until new TPS time, sure)




[Image: TPS-p91.JPG]

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11-17-2016, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 11-17-2016 10:02 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #27
RE: Could really use some help
ill now edit your photo to show what is missing and worn and now its at the wrong angle.
needs 2 photos, one with top shown,
and the bottom end, tilted out so we can see what connected there. in details.
wiring is all about details.

that red wire, is hacked, my guess, the injector died and some "BADGUY" hot wired it. and I bet you cut it and the injector goes dead.
sure it will if the Injector drive red wire INJ1 is dead, all 8v die the fix is new ecu new red wire to ecu or ask me how to fix bad transistor, covered on my ECU page.
the INJ2 wire is yellow, so , why can I not see it here, if I 3 photos and 3 angles, Id know in a heart beat. this stuff is easy for me, i fix bad ecu;s like this. and seen every hack possible.

here is a full size edited photo. with vast questions.


here we go, SSDD , same stuff different day, every one thinks hotwiring injectors are a cure, sorry its not. no matter how many clerks read the lies, and repeat it to infinity.


[Image: injector1.jpg]

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11-17-2016, 10:17 AM
Post: #28
RE: Could really use some help
I can not see the top of that connector the 2 left wire on top are 2 single injector wires going to the single injector, if they are cut, that too is wrong.
the bottom left connector here is not clear
but i do see the RED solid wire (that is INJ1) red, is cut, and molested by aliens from mars.
i bet its a hot wire, job. due to last guy clueless how 8v fires.
but wires are plused
if say the transistor Q101 blew up, (wire shorted there is common on the red wire touching ground burns the transistor to hell.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/injector-drivers.jpg
see that
now see the yellow wire.


so good, we have found a first order failure here.
all else is useless.
the EFI is rendered useless by hacks.
seen many. fixed them all, every one,
if the wire is cut, the transistor blows, or resistor r224 blows, the injections end.
so along comes johnny clerk and hot wires it
now the ECU can never never never again injector correctly,

the ECU must have command authorith of this injector at tall times, or it will never run right,
sure I can get it to run,, make black smoke and or bog but it will never run right and the Gods of SUzuki wanted.

what it failed to do is this
engine died.
he then inserted his NOID light on the 2, pins, and cranked, the lamp is dead.
as all mech, now, that is bad wires, or bad ecu, (2 simple wires ) or ecu.
in my injector page
i show 2 more tricky tests, with the same NOID
to find out which of the 2 wire is dead. (one is not ground, and the the other is not 12v like all MPI cars have, its not an MPI car,)
its not a toyota. either
what I do is use my scope,. but DIY have no scope, only real shops do.
so we use a NOID<
one NOID lead to ground, the other noid lead to red injector wire. (sure inpugged and noid on harness side not injector side. we are looking at the ECU signals.
the lamp flashs, red wire is ok. if not it not, it cut one, grounded out or ecu bad
now the last test.
my page shows this tricky way, i connect the noid to battery _ + plus
now the other NOID pin wire, glows if it hits ground
so i connect that pin (never 12vdc direct) yes, tricky to the yellow wire.
i crank and it flashes, good, ECU ok.
no , bad. yellow wire or bad ECU.
its just 2 parts here ECU and the 2 wire, and both must pulse, i have scope photos of both wires, proving all this.

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11-17-2016, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 11-17-2016 10:25 AM by fixkick.)
Post: #29
RE: Could really use some help
seen a lot of these cars , running just like this.
on wrecking yards, duty, never to touch a real road
or in farm to pull stumps.
all hot wired, and a usually a cloud of black smoke, ever, foot of travel
or off road only cars, seen them hacked like this, and driver dont care.(or his boss, whatever)
its ok,, its just non serious machines.

on most these cars the ECU goes nuts,. it cant control fuel at all , so ECU gets lost. it may go to limphome or not...
or just go real rich, what it does is unknown with this level of chaos. happens,

on yours, the red wire, is the more intelligent of the 2 wires.
so all the fuel controls are really wasted.
i think the yellow wire causes a fixed fuel rate, when the red wire is dead, dead means not pulsing at the correct fuel rates.(ie. hot wired)

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11-18-2016, 01:13 AM
Post: #30
RE: Could really use some help
OK, lot of info to get through here.

Before we delve into the hack wire issue I want to throw out that i checked fuel pressure last night as well. cycled key a few times made it to about 15 PSI. started and let idle for few minutes and it made it up to about 20PSI if you would give it some throttle the PSI drops a little when it revs, down to maybe 18PSI and then back up. seemed to hold pressure fairly well with key off. So i know fuel pressure is low and i have order a pump and plan on getting that swapped hopefully this weekend. (Auto parts stores charge about 5x of what can find thing on the internet, Ridiculous)

Now onto hack wire....

I cut the solid black between the igniter and the TPS/FI connector. and this is when i was not getting any fuel. I did not check to see if i was still spark but know for sure that without the hack wire we got ZERO fuel through injector when cranking. The wire splices in at the igniter plug on the black wire and then also Y's in at the TPS connector into the red wire. So that red wire continues to go both directions at TPS Conn. The yellow wire that also goes to injector and through that connector is hooked up and going through that connector, appears not to have any hacks done on it. i just had everything pulled off to side for that picture. You can actually see the yellow wire in among the other wires to the right.
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