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Could really use some help
11-08-2016, 05:54 AM
Post: #11
RE: Could really use some help
(11-08-2016 04:31 AM)gc73 Wrote:  I flashed the ECU and drove it. Did not seem to fix the issue. idles better but still high at around 1200 even warm. After got back from the drive flash the ECU again and it shows code 12. Still bogging horribly and has poor power... what should i check next?
BOOGING and not misfiring?????
GooD 12s,. this ecu has no misfire monitors until 1996. usa laws, invented this OBD2.

if i could buy 10 of these cars, 24 year old cars.
I could in 1 day, show 10 serious problems with it. every one ive seen are full of problems, folks just drive them. and they stack up.
if you remove any sensor key on , it will store and error for senor pulled, that is its job, its called a monitor (a nanny)
all cars do that, even new.

step 2 is , what I asked before
warm, its not suppose to run warm its must be hot, hot is 180f, the top hose on rad, will get so hot, you cant keep a hand on it.
(assumes non coal miner hands)
it must reach 180 and and hold there. do not ever use a 160 thermostat in any EFI cars.

so is it fully hot.??? the engine, if yes then the IAC closes, and RPM go to normal. (the iAC test is tricky, because the air path is hidden)

First learn rule one on 8v TBI G16a engines , all air leaks results in fast idle. with FULL POWER.!!!
so does (AC on, and Power steering overload call up 1000 rpm)

there are 4 air supplies. and more if things leak like hoses.
1: THE TV throttle plate is 99.9% closed, parked at idle, if not the throttle cable is bad, set wrong or the throttle bore is gunked up blocking the TV open.
just press on it, does RPM drop, bingo, TV failure. TV means Throttle valve.
2: the idle bleed screw.
3: the ISC electric idle speed controls valve. PCM controlls this. and forces 800 rpm,. ECU hard rules, not i FAST IDLE UP MODE.
4: the IAC, is in the base of the TB, throttle body and is 100% thermal, if water temps do not cross past 155F the VALVE leaks air, as designed to do.

that is besides vacuum leaks , many. possible

so is water temp at 180f, this is just step one, in the long process simple tests.

Ever do a full tune up with the timing belt.
if not it slips. and then spark timing goes way off ,and cylinder compression can drop to 80psi from 170. oldest story on G16, all do that everyone, ignoring the belt.

i use my timing light, and go wow, timing is way off, belt slipped, (timing freeze jumper inserted in DLC for sure)

many off these cars with no cooling system flush, the IAC hose packs in gunk.
this blocks it
and the IAC sticks open forever. the water path through the IAC must flow and must be 180F or more.
this is the cold engine, fast idle valve,. so if not hot, it stay on. and races super fast.
it can also fail. it can be tested in a pan of hot water, easy. (TB removed)

so is it 180f? hot fully hot engine?

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11-08-2016, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2016 06:28 AM by gc73.)
Post: #12
RE: Could really use some help
(11-08-2016 05:54 AM)fixkick Wrote:  
(11-08-2016 04:31 AM)gc73 Wrote:  I flashed the ECU and drove it. Did not seem to fix the issue. idles better but still high at around 1200 even warm. After got back from the drive flash the ECU again and it shows code 12. Still bogging horribly and has poor power... what should i check next?
BOOGING and not misfiring?????
GooD 12s,. this ecu has no misfire monitors until 1996. usa laws, invented this OBD2.

if i could buy 10 of these cars, 24 year old cars.
I could in 1 day, show 10 serious problems with it. every one ive seen are full of problems, folks just drive them. and they stack up.
if you remove any sensor key on , it will store and error for senor pulled, that is its job, its called a monitor (a nanny)
all cars do that, even new.

step 2 is , what I asked before
warm, its not suppose to run warm its must be hot, hot is 180f, the top hose on rad, will get so hot, you cant keep a hand on it.
(assumes non coal miner hands)
it must reach 180 and and hold there. do not ever use a 160 thermostat in any EFI cars.

so is it fully hot.??? the engine, if yes then the IAC closes, and RPM go to normal. (the iAC test is tricky, because the air path is hidden)

First learn rule one on 8v TBI G16a engines , all air leaks results in fast idle. with FULL POWER.!!!
so does (AC on, and Power steering overload call up 1000 rpm)

there are 4 air supplies. and more if things leak like hoses.
1: THE TV throttle plate is 99.9% closed, parked at idle, if not the throttle cable is bad, set wrong or the throttle bore is gunked up blocking the TV open.
just press on it, does RPM drop, bingo, TV failure. TV means Throttle valve.
2: the idle bleed screw.
3: the ISC electric idle speed controls valve. PCM controlls this. and forces 800 rpm,. ECU hard rules, not i FAST IDLE UP MODE.
4: the IAC, is in the base of the TB, throttle body and is 100% thermal, if water temps do not cross past 155F the VALVE leaks air, as designed to do.

that is besides vacuum leaks , many. possible

so is water temp at 180f, this is just step one, in the long process simple tests.

Ever do a full tune up with the timing belt.
if not it slips. and then spark timing goes way off ,and cylinder compression can drop to 80psi from 170. oldest story on G16, all do that everyone, ignoring the belt.

i use my timing light, and go wow, timing is way off, belt slipped, (timing freeze jumper inserted in DLC for sure)

many off these cars with no cooling system flush, the IAC hose packs in gunk.
this blocks it
and the IAC sticks open forever. the water path through the IAC must flow and must be 180F or more.
this is the cold engine, fast idle valve,. so if not hot, it stay on. and races super fast.
it can also fail. it can be tested in a pan of hot water, easy. (TB removed)

so is it 180f? hot fully hot engine?

I know the ISC gets so hot you can not touch it when it gets fully warm as well as the radiator hose. but as for actual temp i am not sure. I will verify that.

What more do you include with a full tune up other than plugs, wires, rotor, dist cap, oil change, fuel filter, timing belt, timing belt tensioner, air filter, EGR clean out. Ive had lines off ISC as well and they were free flowing. Also changed oil and coolant.

Had one vac leak on a seal to ISC that I have fixed.

I guess my biggest concern right now is the power issue and the bogging. It is a major PAIN to drive and when you give it any fuel right now it completely falls on its face. when you let up it "comes back to life". Does not matter if the engine is hot cold or anywhere in between it always boggs when accelerating to some degree especially when below 3k rpm.

thanks
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11-08-2016, 07:09 AM
Post: #13
RE: Could really use some help
if not misfiring, then check fuel pressure.
given all this parts changed or checked.
the one thing a good engine with good EFI needs first is fuel pressure.
and is not monitored by the ECU.

and the 10micron injector screens, the single injector comes out, did you inspect this? and see them? (bad fuel in the past can pack and injector, its 4times smaller media sizes than the filter.
i need to know when it has power and not.
the engine,power.
does engine have full power WOT>?? or only has power lose at other times, if its really bogging , not misfiring, then that is low fuel pressure , injector clogged.
or the map is dead. tool.. The map is the key sensor on all 8V .
the map sets the demand for fuel.
then the injector injects based off the map,, the ecu use the map to compute AIR FLOW in to the engine.
if the injector is ok then FUEL pressure is next. Fuel pressure can be low, with clogged filter, weak pump or FPR that sticks open, we measure pressure, and let fact tell us what is wrong.
not parts changed, ever, seen many bad new parts, I have.

the correct pressure running is 34 to 41 psi....
it's highest (pressure) at low altitude, to over come , normal air pressure. (1bar at sea-level.) this is the job of the FPR , doing that. it is for ALTITUDE.
as you go higher, up a mountain the fuel pressure drops , in direct proportion to the air pressure on your head. 1 for 1 ratio drop.

the FPR scale is on my FPR page.



'

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11-08-2016, 07:23 AM
Post: #14
RE: Could really use some help
(11-08-2016 07:09 AM)fixkick Wrote:  if not misfiring, then check fuel pressure.
given all this parts changed or checked.
the one thing a good engine with good EFI needs first is fuel pressure.
and is not monitored by the ECU.

and the 10micron injector screens, the single injector comes out, did you inspect this? and see them? (bad fuel in the past can pack and injector, its 4times smaller media sizes than the filter.
i need to know when it has power and not.
the engine,power.
does engine have full power WOT>?? or only has power lose at other times, if its really bogging , not misfiring, then that is low fuel pressure , injector clogged.
or the map is dead. tool.. The map is the key sensor on all 8V .
the map sets the demand for fuel.
then the injector injects based off the map,, the ecu use the map to compute AIR FLOW in to the engine.
if the injector is ok then FUEL pressure is next. Fuel pressure can be low, with clogged filter, weak pump or FPR that sticks open, we measure pressure, and let fact tell us what is wrong.
not parts changed, ever, seen many bad new parts, I have.

the correct pressure running is 34 to 41 psi....
it's highest (pressure) at low altitude, to over come , normal air pressure. (1bar at sea-level.) this is the job of the FPR , doing that. it is for ALTITUDE.
as you go higher, up a mountain the fuel pressure drops , in direct proportion to the air pressure on your head. 1 for 1 ratio drop.

the FPR scale is on my FPR page.



'

I have looked at the MAP but have not tested voltage to it to know for sure weather it is dead or not. i do know that it is getting good vac.

I have not pulled the injector to check those screens. I will do that.

As for when it has power and when it does not it is very hit or miss. sometimes it does at WOT, at low RPM's doesnt really matter how much throttle you give it until you get it over 3k. typically i have to pump the throttle peddle to get her rolling. sometimes she will run like a champ and others you feel like you have to either get out and push or rev it up and dump the clutch to get it off the line.

I have not checked Fuel pressure yet but did have the regulator out. All in all it seems like it is running very rich and not starving for fuel but i would definitely say it is bogging not misfiring. makes a bogging noise through intake if you have the rubber boot off from filter to manifold and run the throttle with you hand on the TB.
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11-08-2016, 09:45 AM
Post: #15
RE: Could really use some help
still have the CAT on it?
if yes, it can melt and make no power at high revs. then gets works and no starts, due to engine cant pump air.
if the spark tips are not black, but are cream/tan or very light gray , then its not rich misfiring, just starving for fuel.
fuel pressure is always #1 for fuel starvation then , dead map (rare) or filters clogged in injector, screen (top and bottom screen)
spark timed ok
then vacuum at idle 20" HG and not bouncing
usually the map always work, hose good. never seen a bad map ever, (not crushed)
here they are...
[Image: Iac-inj-view1w.jpg]


I have looked at the MAP but have not tested voltage to it to know for sure weather it is dead or not. i do know that it is getting good vac.

I have not pulled the injector to check those screens. I will do that.

As for when it has power and when it does not it is very hit or miss. sometimes it does at WOT, at low RPM's doesnt really matter how much throttle you give it until you get it over 3k. typically i have to pump the throttle peddle to get her rolling. sometimes she will run like a champ and others you feel like you have to either get out and push or rev it up and dump the clutch to get it off the line.

I have not checked Fuel pressure yet but did have the regulator out. All in all it seems like it is running very rich and not starving for fuel but i would definitely say it is bogging not misfiring. makes a bogging noise through intake if you have the rubber boot off from filter to manifold and run the throttle with you hand on the TB.

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11-15-2016, 04:18 AM
Post: #16
RE: Could really use some help
I assume its a bog and not a misfire. it loose all power and makes no combustion noise at all. sometimes it has power at WOT and sometimes not. might be able to go WOT 1st time and get moving might have to pump the throttle a dozen times and get RPM's up before it does anything but suck air. The only reliable time the engine has power is at high revs 3k-4500. Also you may be leaving you foot in same spot and the motor will go from bogging to revving to bogging every other second then come out of it totally and rev on up to 3500 leaving you foot and throttle in exactly same position.

I pulled the injector and looked at screens... nothing noticeable. I hosed the screens with some brake cleaner and put it back together. No change. One thing i did notice in relation to FPR was that the vac line to it didn't seem to have much if any vac... though i was able to spray some solvent through the metal elbow that comes off the throttle body and verified that the spray came through. Still didnt seem like much vac if any coming through at idle.

I also pulled all spark plugs. all except 1 were a tan/creme color and the one that wasnt was the far back plug (closest to firewall) and it was only slightly darker. When i have pulled the IAT in the past it seemed to be very wet and smell stronlgy of gas!

I thought about trying to give it just a very small shot of carb/choke cleaner or something similar when its doing what im calling the bog to see if that causes the motor to come out of the bog. in my mind that would prove/disprove lack of fuel, right?

Again thanks again for all the help, i am at my wits end with this thing.


(11-08-2016 07:09 AM)fixkick Wrote:  if not misfiring, then check fuel pressure.
given all this parts changed or checked.
the one thing a good engine with good EFI needs first is fuel pressure.
and is not monitored by the ECU.

and the 10micron injector screens, the single injector comes out, did you inspect this? and see them? (bad fuel in the past can pack and injector, its 4times smaller media sizes than the filter.
i need to know when it has power and not.
the engine,power.
does engine have full power WOT>?? or only has power lose at other times, if its really bogging , not misfiring, then that is low fuel pressure , injector clogged.
or the map is dead. tool.. The map is the key sensor on all 8V .
the map sets the demand for fuel.
then the injector injects based off the map,, the ecu use the map to compute AIR FLOW in to the engine.
if the injector is ok then FUEL pressure is next. Fuel pressure can be low, with clogged filter, weak pump or FPR that sticks open, we measure pressure, and let fact tell us what is wrong.
not parts changed, ever, seen many bad new parts, I have.

the correct pressure running is 34 to 41 psi....
it's highest (pressure) at low altitude, to over come , normal air pressure. (1bar at sea-level.) this is the job of the FPR , doing that. it is for ALTITUDE.
as you go higher, up a mountain the fuel pressure drops , in direct proportion to the air pressure on your head. 1 for 1 ratio drop.

the FPR scale is on my FPR page.



'
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11-15-2016, 05:24 AM
Post: #17
RE: Could really use some help
(11-15-2016 04:18 AM)gc73 Wrote:  92 8v.
I assume its a bog and not a misfire. it loose all power and makes no combustion noise at all. sometimes it has power at WOT and sometimes not. might be able to go WOT 1st time and get moving might have to pump the throttle a dozen times and get RPM's up before it does anything but suck air. The only reliable time the engine has power is at high revs 3k-4500. Also you may be leaving you foot in same spot and the motor will go from bogging to revving to bogging every other second then come out of it totally and rev on up to 3500 leaving you foot and throttle in exactly same position.
SOunds like if fuel filter is ok, the pump pressure is low, got a fuel pressure gauge?


I pulled the injector and looked at screens... nothing noticeable. I hosed the screens with some brake cleaner and put it back together. No change. One thing i did notice in relation to FPR was that the vac line to it didn't seem to have much if any vac...
FPR on 8v is not vacuum its atmospheric, it is only and altitude sensor, in truth. as you go to top of "pikes peak" it drops pressure so engine dont flood.

though i was able to spray some solvent through the metal elbow that comes off the throttle body and verified that the spray came through. Still didnt seem like much vac if any coming through at idle.
if the nipple on the FPR is not leaking fuel its probably , ok, what matters more is fuel pressure, at idle and when gunning the throttle , more important.

I also pulled all spark plugs. all except 1 were a tan/creme color and the one that wasn't was the far back plug (closest to firewall) and it was only slightly darker. When i have pulled the IAT in the past it seemed to be very wet and smell stronlgy of gas!
GOOD !!!! on plugs, they are OK. just need to know not black, and not fuel soaked.
sounds again like fuel starvation, (combustion)

I thought about trying to give it just a very small shot of carb/choke cleaner or something similar when its doing what im calling the bog to see if that causes the motor to come out of the bog. (this what all shops do, you are very savvy to think this) way to go... ive even run hose through fire wall to do that even 2 driving, one with hose other drives.
omg, I can erase the bog, it is starving for fuel.
in my mind that would prove/disprove lack of fuel, right? for sure.... brilliant,

Again thanks again for all the help, i am at my wits end with this thing.
nah your very close
just need a pump gauges.

http://www.fixkick.com/INJECTORS/TBI-conn-1w.jpg
if the reads, 60psi the filter is clogged
if 10 or 20 psi, the pump is bad or voltage to pump is not say 14v or near battery actual voltage minus 1/2 volt. so if battery is 14v (alternator active)
then 13.5 is at pump due to cheap suz, tiny wires.
the pump draws 4 amps , if its at 10, the voltage sags alot (like 2 or 3 volts drop loss at pump, )
some pumps do that draw 2 times normal current, (just before the melt) and 14v at battery shows 11 at pump, the big clue there is 11v, and an ammeter.
this is running pressures and voltages.


good luck to you and cheers!
(11-08-2016 07:09 AM)fixkick Wrote:  if not misfiring, then check fuel pressure.
given all this parts changed or checked.
the one thing a good engine with good EFI needs first is fuel pressure.
and is not monitored by the ECU.

and the 10micron injector screens, the single injector comes out, did you inspect this? and see them? (bad fuel in the past can pack and injector, its 4times smaller media sizes than the filter.
i need to know when it has power and not.
the engine,power.
does engine have full power WOT>?? or only has power lose at other times, if its really bogging , not misfiring, then that is low fuel pressure , injector clogged.
or the map is dead. tool.. The map is the key sensor on all 8V .
the map sets the demand for fuel.
then the injector injects based off the map,, the ecu use the map to compute AIR FLOW in to the engine.
if the injector is ok then FUEL pressure is next. Fuel pressure can be low, with clogged filter, weak pump or FPR that sticks open, we measure pressure, and let fact tell us what is wrong.
not parts changed, ever, seen many bad new parts, I have.

the correct pressure running is 34 to 41 psi....
it's highest (pressure) at low altitude, to over come , normal air pressure. (1bar at sea-level.) this is the job of the FPR , doing that. it is for ALTITUDE.
as you go higher, up a mountain the fuel pressure drops , in direct proportion to the air pressure on your head. 1 for 1 ratio drop.

the FPR scale is on my FPR page.



'

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11-15-2016, 05:27 AM
Post: #18
RE: Could really use some help
the test port on the Fuel filter BANJO is 6mm thread,
and is on the filter INPUT sides and if the filter packs up.
the pressure reads shunt spec, 60psi not 30s.
but the pressure spec, is 34-41, IIRC.
41 at sealevel and 34psi at pikes peak.

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11-15-2016, 05:31 AM
Post: #19
RE: Could really use some help
in most cases the ECU never forces hard lean.
the only exception for ECU is map sensor reading, 28" inches HG hard hard vacuum , which is near impossible. parked.
28" hg is when going fast down a hill and down shifting and letting the car scream the engine, fast, and foot off the gas.
huge vacuum now. but this never happens, driving. normal or parked
so that is why I say low fuel pressure. IS IT.

or injector is clogged if pressure is at spec.

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11-15-2016, 05:31 AM
Post: #20
RE: Could really use some help
$20 is charge to clean injector, pro grade
ask.

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