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1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - Printable Version

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1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - Ivan_J - 01-14-2016

Hi.
I have a 1998 Spanish build Vitara (not Grand Vitara).
Its with G16B engine with plastic intake tube and distributor(85C designation).
There are few strange things with it.

I found spark timing don't freeze with jump wire between C-D. Yes it stays still unlike without the wire but when I race the engine timing advances.
TPS is ok and adjusted right, coolant is hot, rpms are 800.

Another one: when engine is at normal temp, and I cruise at stoplight at idle(manual trans), rpms are 1000 or above. Few seconds after the car is still, rpms drop to 800. I've used to have 1992 G16B Sidekick(again Vitara in Europe) and it did not have this.
I read EGR on newer are speed dependent. I suppose ECM increase engine speed so it don't stop when exhaust gases enters intake.

My fuel consumption is bad - 23MPG at 50-60mph country roads and 15 MPG in city. These MPGs are on LPG, its normal to be 10% lower than on gas but still too low.
Any thoughts?


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - fixkick - 01-14-2016

redux
its a PIGGY back L-ECU + P-ECU setup
the P-ECU runs spark and idle speeds.
keep mind the P-ecu may get upset if it see's that its fuel controls are not responding as expected
same with iSC
or the response is too slow.
the P-ECU must not go to limp home, mode,or tuning the L-ECU will be a waste or impossible.

G16 with maf, where maf
egr is 6 wire motor drive.
there is no map
its called the Air density system (maf based)
but the L-ECU is speed density system , polar opposites that.


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - Ivan_J - 01-14-2016

It's a dual fuel system, installed here in Bulgaria.
Here LPG and CNG are very common because of price of fuel. A litre of normal gas cost 1.90 BGN and a litre LPG is only 0.80.
My system is LPG injection, it have own ECU that read gas injectors times. Also have some sensors - MAP and LPG pressure, temp and water temp. So LPG ECU calculates its multypling factor and opens LPG injectors with that precalculated time. I think it have injectors emulator to fool ECM they work. And there is no need to fool other sensors.
Its a smart system and not expensive, $400-$1000.
Back on my problem - my EGR is newer type without vacuum actuator but with 6 pin connector. But it don't have extra MAP as you mention in the EGR section. I blow all passages with air and wire and they seem to be clear.
Do you know what the 6 pins are for? Can I plug that EGR?
Cheers,
Ivan


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - fixkick - 01-14-2016

G16b? is it 16valves with MAF, or just MAP sensor based engine.?
is car OBD2 or OBD1 , ECU, if latter are flash codes 12, in both modes (LPG and Petrol)
is your iSC 2 pins or more, some newer engines have motor drive isc and egr.

yes, a conversion, duel fuel
and you have smart egr, with egr motor driver. it runs with or without cat.
the egr runs , when not at idle, and not w.o.t, and is regulated as an electric motor, via , engine rpm and load.
load on this engine is a function of MAP ( MAF if it is) readings. like when going up a hill vacuum is lower, and that means load is greater.
the egr flow is most , from map readings. and the egr is just a motor controlled valve.
the ecu injections (petrol) are based of tables, of RPM and load.
so the LPG, brain must be tuned from those large tables. and is not easy, and will be crude, unless its done on dyno long hard work
id bet your LPG brain (L-ECU) is crude, like most are in the conversion business.
the petro (P-ecu) thinks its running petro and is not (in LPG mode) so LPG is weaker, and the P-ECU sees that weakness and adds fuel
It see this via the weaker Map readings
this L-ECU is what racer call a Piggyback, (a liar box)that spends its whole time fooling the P-ECU.

the spark advance freeze jumper only works with idle switch closed, and rpm near 800 and hot engine. if the idle is wrong, freeze fails.
there is no Suzuki published statement ive seen that shows upper limit. to failure.
so dont use the freeze , in LPG mode, only Petrol mode.
back to idle . being too high in LPG mode

what will cause this. ?
Guessing,
1:normal for the ecu, if it does it in petrol and LPG mode? some software oddity, for smog reasons.
2:induction air leaks, and iSC is running near closed. we find this by doing iSC duty cycle tests. not at 50% duty hot, idle.
3Confusedticky ISC. (its not bad egr, because that cuases low rpm and misfiring)
4: in limp-home, mode then corrects that and idle wakes up. (limphome cancel idle controls)

unplugging ISC when idle is too high ,can show cause. is this a 2 pin ISC or more pins>?


10 points on the most interesting post here ever, dual fuel. wow.

id check duty cycle of the ISC, hot, idle 800, for 50% if not 50 set it there, need photo of your throttle body. top

"Can I plug that EGR?"

you mean unplug?
or block passages.?

id bet the egr is needed on petrol but not LPG
unless running very expensive high octane petrol

"Can I plug that EGR?"

you mean unplug?
, or block up passages.


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - Ivan_J - 01-15-2016

(01-14-2016, 10:15 PM)fixkick Wrote: G16b? is it 16valves with MAF, or just MAP sensor based engine.? G16B 16V w.MAF
is car OBD2 or OBD1 , ECU, if latter are flash codes 12, in both modes (LPG and Petrol) I'm not sure. It have all three service plugs: 4-pins, 6-pins and OBD2. But not all scanners can connect it. No error codes recorded.
is your iSC 2 pins or more, some newer engines have motor drive isc and egr. ISC is same as http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/tests/IAC-E-tests.html Cleaned and tested.

yes, a conversion, duel fuel
and you have smart egr, with egr motor driver. it runs with or without cat.
the egr runs , when not at idle, and not w.o.t, and is regulated as an electric motor, via , engine rpm and load.
load on this engine is a function of MAP ( MAF if it is) readings. like when going up a hill vacuum is lower, and that means load is greater.
the egr flow is most , from map readings. and the egr is just a motor controlled valve.
the ecu injections (petrol) are based of tables, of RPM and load.
so the LPG, brain must be tuned from those large tables. and is not easy, and will be crude, unless its done on dyno long hard work
id bet your LPG brain (L-ECU) is crude, like most are in the conversion business.
the petro (P-ecu) thinks its running petro and is not (in LPG mode) so LPG is weaker, and the P-ECU sees that weakness and adds fuel
Its not working like this. As I said it reads petrol injection times and recalculate them to make LPG injection times. The car runs at LPG like on petrol. I don't think petrol ECU understand something's different.
It see this via the weaker Map readings
this L-ECU is what racer call a Piggyback, (a liar box)that spends its whole time fooling the P-ECU.
No there are no feedback to p-ECU

the spark advance freeze jumper only works with idle switch closed, and rpm near 800 and hot engine. if the idle is wrong, freeze fails.
there is no Suzuki published statement ive seen that shows upper limit. to failure.
so dont use the freeze , in LPG mode, only Petrol mode.
I use freeze just to adjust timing. On LPG 10 deg static advance.
back to idle . being too high in LPG mode
It's not too high in LPG, its same on petrol. And just when the car is in motion. When still, idle drops to normal within few seconds.
what will cause this. ?
Guessing,
1:normal for the ecu, if it does it in petrol and LPG mode? some software oddity, for smog reasons.
2:induction air leaks, and iSC is running near closed. we find this by doing iSC duty cycle tests. not at 50% duty hot, idle. When I clamp ISC hose, idle rpms drops.
3Confusedticky ISC. (its not bad egr, because that cuases low rpm and misfiring)
4: in limp-home, mode then corrects that and idle wakes up. (limphome cancel idle controls) What's that?

unplugging ISC when idle is too high ,can show cause. is this a 2 pin ISC or more pins>? 2-pin


10 points on the most interesting post here ever, dual fuel. wow.

id check duty cycle of the ISC, hot, idle 800, for 50% if not 50 set it there, need photo of your throttle body. top I don't have duty cycle meter. TB is same as all 16V with plastic adjustment needle.

"Can I plug that EGR?"

you mean unplug?
or block passages.?

id bet the egr is needed on petrol but not LPG
unless running very expensive high octane petrol

"Can I plug that EGR?"

you mean unplug?
, or block up passages.
I want to isolate EGR from engine but ECU don't have to know that. I'm thinking to make new gasket for passage to intake that have no hole for gasses to pass and that way I will remove EGR. I don't think ECU can catch this? I can't see any profit of woring EGR on power or economy. Just on ecology.


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - fixkick - 01-15-2016

never seen a MAP based MPI 16v (ok no maf) cute !
the iSC is same
im totally confused, on dual conversion here,but that normal,lots and lots of types there are,

so how does the LPG mode kill the stock injectors for Petro?
ill start there... as this is key, my guess is it kills the fuel pump, down stream.
no feed back to p-ecu, sure there is, if it has power, it has all its sensors running. and fooled.
the P-ECu thinks its injection raw petrol but is not. (ive dont this in my lab) (rpm fooling is 1st step)

what does isolate (ah removed)
see if unplugged?, the valve inside is closed then you are done if not, make a steel plate that replaces egr, gaskets will burn up if not exh,proof.


sorry no, the EGR, does many things besides smog nOX reduction,
exh valves run way cooler and last way longer.
ends the ping/knock/detonation on petrol. (have no idea at all on LPG, ) suzuki has no knock sensor and is serious issue. here... (no real protection)
you know that unheard pings will damage engines, right?
less pumping losses, cruising, egr opens , temps drop and uses less fuel , engine sucking on throttle valve hard wastes? 1,mpg? near.
egr is not a bad thing, unless the EGR paths carbons up. id never remove one, for Ping reasons, for sure unheard ping...
all usa cars P-ecu tests egr and fails hard, for EGR dead,by law. NOX and CO are nasty pollutants. code 51, or p0400.


back to this odd system(LPG mode)
the P-ECU creates all spark and advance, not your L-ECU.
so the P-ECu has power. and runs spark during LPG usage, so, CMP , and optional CKP are working as are techo signals,if not the ecu cuts injectors dead. totally!
injectors dead , means no PULSe TO THEM. MY WILD GUESS, is there is no Petrol pressure on the fuel rail under LPG ops
then the ecu thinks it is injecting petrol and is not, follow me? this is what PIGGYBACKs do, (simple to vast complexity)

that means the P-ECU, sees a working map sensor and working spark and RPM and engine load calculations all good inside the P-ecu
see?
then the pulses on the P-ecu INJ are correct for petrol if the 02 sensor works, at stoich
if all that works , the L-ECU steals the 4 injector signals (or 1) and scales them (tables?) to proper LPG rates, based on energy density of LPG(less)

if the p=ecu sees the stock 02 go lean (stoich is different for LPG for sure) its 15.5:1
so the p-ecu holds 14.7:1 and less air, and is richer for LPG, close for sure, but(one more factor to make mpg low)
or does the L-ECU have its one LPG 02? ???? see? , Im guessing real schematics in my mind.(weak)

keep in mind the P-ecu fiddles both spark timing and isc to keep ilde at 800 hot; (fast and slow servos they are)

the p-ecu runs spark and idle all its own
and is fooled in to thinking its injecting raw petrol (gasoline) but is not
this is not hard to do but to get all modes of p-ecu happy can be hard
as my turbo cars found. (goes lean at full boost &boom.)
may be he P-ecu sees the egr fail and then changes things, all bad.
some do that. on my 96-98 the egr dead the throttle gains like 6 small bog points from low to near max throttle.
i think it goes lean. one if the oddest effects ive ever seen on eFI.

on petrol engines, we have huge pumping losses.
(unlike diesels that have no throttle at all, just cuts fuel to go slow, )
the EGR really does reduce pumping losses
one buddy I have, we defeated the egr while driving. power dropped, and took more gas pedal to make up for loss
this was pumping lost effect..
the hard thing about piggybacks.
is fooling the host,under all modes. can be very hard to do that.

is your P-ecu holding closed loop 02 status running LPG? takes scan tool


scan ports
obd2 is 16 pin port, its USA only in 1996, id say spain didnt copy this or use EOBD until way later.
so is OBD1. and there are on scan tools
only these work, we think.
http://www.fixkick.com/hacking/hacked/addressmap-hacked.html


limhome is a bad place to and will cause huge fuel waste ,seen 15mpg on petrol easy.
suzuki name is failsafe, same deal.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/LimpHome/failsafe.html


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - Ivan_J - 01-15-2016

Man, you don't follow me.
Its MAF not MAP car.

Check last two pages for LPG instalation I hope it will clear to you how it works.
http://www.agcentrum.pl/img/direct/Zenit_PRO_Direct-instrukcja_obslugi_programu_PL_201409.pdf
Fuel pump is working all the time. Only injectors are cut as per scheme.
The best thing about LPG-ECU is it have connection and software and I can see live data as temp, rpms, injectors times - petrol and LPG, LPG pressure and temp, O2. And ofcouse I can change the map.
You can install the software and try it in offline mode: http://en.agcentrum.pl/img/JZ_2005_1.10.16_080304.exe

About EGR. On my previous Vitara EGR was stuck open and consumption was terrible. When I plug it off all was fine.
This G16 was with blown head and I replaced it with G13BB head from Baleno which is same head. It have good valves for at least 200miles even on LPG.
But I don't care too much about my current engine as I have J18 sitting ot the floor in my garage waiting to replace weaker. Someday.


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - fixkick - 01-15-2016

hello Ivan and Cheers.!
try to under stand the G16 has like 6 class types. world wide. (usa just 1) and ive yet to see your engine. ours are MAF inducted. all. this year.
and all this year, here, the map is eGR map, only. EGR map, is for your OBD2 EGR test 1 and test 1 monitor only.
some MAFS are hidden on the side of the Throttle body, seen nere in 1999 UP.
add to this, modern car run 2 air meters, maf and map, the MAP runs at lower speeds, its better there....then the MAF kicks in,,, Sorry i diverged...
YOur system.(dual fuel)
they cut the fuel injectors. Petrol , so that is the change over mechanism.
i read the schematic, i see they :
run their own 02 sensor. so now both ECU's have an 02 to use , must be LPG sensor used, for Stoich 15.5:1 (vg,very good)
i see they run a full blown (nice) ecu fueling table. good
It would need dyno tuning to get that right. (or someone elses tables from there G16b) (we sell them here, in usa for turbos)

i see one error? on the makers schematic, the cut the P-ECU, MAP sensors (baro pressure) (bad idea that) but you have on MAF. so.../????
If you have TBI car this will kill the p-ECu dead, and limphome mode. so my guess, is your car it (PINK) connects to nothing. on that L-ECU wire.
Is your MAF connected and working at the air cleaner ,like when car ,was new. ?
Some CLASS G16b have MAF against air cleaner, others have it inside throttle body. and with iSC in body, some 2 wire, (mine) and other 6wire.yours

our ecu can see all data too. if obd1. per this factory page (consolidated by me) and all obd2 , full PID logging is super easy. PiD is live data.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/Tech1/tech1_output.html

the G16s , all egr, main vavles (vacuum operated) stick about every 50,000 miles. 90km? (cleaning them since 1980)
they do that, the 6 wire electric EGR runs far longer.
but is a factor of, if engine run for that long stuck in limphome mode ,; eg: super rich and super carbon build up.
a good runing engine the egr will last a long time before cleaning is needed. (tan exahust ports, are a clue that is happening)

the reason i ask questions about the old p=ECU, is that it runs all spark and all advance.
anything that upsets the old P-ECU will cause the advancing tables to go nuts.
that includes the MAF, (it is the pre-cursor to engine load, variables. and the index to all spark maps as is RPM)
so if the maf sees air leaks, bam, spark is retarded.(advance)

This has always been a problem doing PIGGYBACK (ecu;s) for Turbo charging any EFI car.
they end up fooling the base ECU, and the software in the base ecu or tables are upset.
the L-ECU can only work as good as the P-ECU's spark lets it...a serious limit if ever.

the old vitara. we get 28mpg (24city)easy. but the EGR closed at every traffic stop. if not we clean it , every time, rpm drops below 800 hot . EGR is cause, (all else good)
15mpg is 15.68 L/100km limphome is TOP REASON> all EFI in USA do limp mode. and a/t transmissions....
or if MPG is too High we scan it, there are many reasons why high listing a few top reasons

Limphome, mode, goes to 15mpg. and turns the CAT red hot, (if in fact it still alive, most are not) retarded spark, rpm cap, and super rich fueling. and worse 1995 and older)
FPR reg, bad,(most are this old, leaking diaphram or stuck closed)
high fuel pressure, 55psi ? oops
leaking injectors (or not balanced)
map bad (hose bad in all cases) or MAF bad, clean it , or buy MAF from Suzuki for $1200 (insane price)
02 sensor bad
02 not bad,but #4 exhaust port cracked (as all do,it seems) sucking in air, causing o2 to go to 0v, and ecu slams rich, ecu is LoST. (cant find stoich)
ECt reads way too low.(or thermostat bad)
8v, IAT READS too low.
best is to scan it and watch all sensors,and LTFT, if LTFT is not near -5% at idle, something is up.
I can help you get 28mpg for sure. or Result: 8.4 L/100km ! on the road, not 80mph , sane speeds for box kite, with high CG.
that is correct LPG keeps valves cool !
where does you L-ECU get RPM or CMP data? ?? i missed that?

FYI STUFF: (MY FAV. TOPIC)
i see Europe , tightening then smog net!
130g/km CO2 limits (fiat c500 does 84 now, Tier A)
and now checking NOX, correctly(measuring it and not trusting VW to tell truth, shock !)
so IN EU, countries, checking NOX what does that mean, it means they will also check, HC, CO too and find problems.
here in USA they blindly trust the 02 sensors, 1996 up. (NO ROLLER, NO TAIL SNIFFING) (DUMB, NO?)
that is why VW fooled us, too,
if i was in charge, they have:
tested every 1000TH car on a dyno load roller (like 1995 cars do) (Like TSA does for random body searches at air ports.)
(devils advocate(tongue firmly planted in cheek)
and then what
easy
2 random speed done (tech, tosses dice), foiling the VW liar ECU tricks
one other VW trick is to see front wheel not spinning with ABS sensors (and knows, (evil) omg gringo's are testing me......)
so turn them off ABS, during all smog tests. kill ABS, and FOIL vw. or all others.

I MENTION ALLthis , to call attention to, the possibility of future, stricter rules on all cars, for smog, testing rules
most cars here, we cant do what you did, because that violates factory smog controls.
we do have a program for converting gross polluters, to lpg, or cng.(a one way trip) but is not allowed to be DUAL fuel with Petrol.
things are moving fast, its like 1971 and 1988 all over again."EPA air quality controls" we were like fist in that...

I remember the President of FIAT a few years back (love him) saying he does not know how "1.6L tDI from VW passes usa smog.(smart man)"
they didnt! AS WE ALL NOW KNOW.
IMO VW (had 3 choices, sell 900cc TDI , (kill the 1.6 dead , huge investment in tooling and engineering) or not sell them here (the spec, is impossible here, if you read it)
or lie.
hard choices,all 3.
The usa spec on diesel is crazy low.... really IMO so low, diesels will end soon here I BET, and with CO2,. 2 knifes to the back. (co2, and NOX) double dead.
or 2: 1 shrink in DISPLACMENT. (non trivial that)

one nice thing, is that now for the first time, all makers of cars, are on a level playing field, if our stupid GOVernment learns hot test for smog properly
like we do in the semiconductor business
we take samples up stream (based on failure rates desired, there is no zero,in a real world) and we shut down production when it fails.
we disqualify the plant,. until its get low failure rates. (includes smog in the future, I bet !!!)
its not 1970 now.
on cars we'd test the engine in the assembly plant engine way before it was shipped the main body plant. (why hobble the main line)
see?
we call that the front end. (and 2 plants, so 1 is always certified,) in our case the bad lots are destroyed
in the case of engine, it's REworked.
and reinserted to final test. line.
this will be the future of engines.... The smog fighting gloves will now come off,or better the blinders.......
the tighter the smog spec, the worse this gets. at all levels..
cheers.

PS:
parting shot. (liar boxes, piggyback setups,and dual fuel piggy backs, yours.
all persons doing this this, discovered ?
that they can make it work good,or great,but in all cases the stock ECU randomly went nuts. (and if obd1 , worse)
all did. (top names like Greg Banish) see blue book....

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/greg+banish?_requestid=110184

he talks about all this, all the problems found fooling the stock ECU.
on ours the ROM is fixed, can not be changed. (in the CPU core)
the problem is the software is UNKNOWN, and has flaws,,,, in fact our 1996 is listed as EPA non compliant to OBD2 spec, (bad monitors) have proof.
the flaws are big week points. (like having painting the Mona Liesa. with a 2 year old jerking your arm)
one flaw in our pre 96s is the idle surge problem (dangerous iSC software)
the solution is simple, get rid of the stock ecu, end problem.
a custom ecu, installed and tuned.
or our G16 some ,regress the cam to the old 1990 mech,distributor so they dont have to tune spark(dyno time is very expensive)
sorry for long post
but ,this is my thoughts about future smog testing, (you aint seen nuttn yet)
Co2 is not the worst gas exiting the tail pipe. for green house gasses. wait till they get a full grip on that fact.... just wait.... early warning....


the piggy is what it is read this
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/Piggyback%20Vs%20Standalone.html

answer the first question, its yes. it is a piggy back, the stock ECU runs spark. (and is all software 99%)


the reason it will fail is simple
no human knows your ecu software algorithms. so how can a dumb L-ECU now this? ,it can't under all conditions.
to prove anomalies, out
log all live data from both ECu's
and monitor all input pins on the P-ECU. see if something flips wrong. at point of failures... all hard work.

or run the G16 cam and distrib. (ecu no longer controls spark this way)
and if savvy trim fly weights in the distrib to get advance best for LPG.
no software spark. zero.


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - fixkick - 01-16-2016

idle problems may be hard to solve
if the L-ECU is upset, in any why , ISC may act odd.


RE: 1998 Spanish build Vitara questions - fixkick - 01-16-2016

and many after market eCU, you stop using the cars maf and can only use the supplied map
i wish your book was in English, id like to read the theory, and applicability to (speed and air density systems)